Hornby Black 5 R061 help required

[barney121e]

Hi all

 

I got a couple of trains at an auction. The motor on the tender is good, just needs a service, but i noticed the large wheels on the locos didn't go round. Have taken them apart but can't get this pin out which is where the middle large wheels go. (where red arrow is pointing.)

 

I cant font a service sheet for the loco, and wondering if anyone knows if the pin should come out?

 

Cheers

 

David

 

[ejstubbs]

2 hours ago, barney121e said:

I cant font a service sheet for the loco, and wondering if anyone knows if the pin should come out?

 

It's service sheet 87, available here:

http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=14

http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=308

or here:

https://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/pdf/Hornby Service Sheets/No.087 4-6-0 Black Five.pdf

https://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/pdf/Hornby Service Sheets/No.087A 4-6-0 LMS Class 5.pdf

 

The 'driving' wheel axles are all part number S.2345.  I can't imagine that the one for the centre drivers is not supposed to come out though - full disclosure - I've never disassembled a Hornby Five of that age to that extent.  Does it actually rotate?

Edited November 20, 2022 by ejstubbs

[33C]

2 hours ago, barney121e said:

Hi all

 

I got a couple of trains at an auction. The motor on the tender is good, just needs a service, but i noticed the large wheels on the locos didn't go round. Have taken them apart but can't get this pin out which is where the middle large wheels go. (where red arrow is pointing.)

 

I cant font a service sheet for the loco, and wondering if anyone knows if the pin should come out?

 

Cheers

 

David

 

Looks rusty, should just tap out. When re-bushing the driving wheels, remember there are two types of plastic bush. A "top hat" type and a smaller, shouldered type. If the axle is the same thickness all the way along, top hat, if a slight step at the ends, the smaller type.

[PaulaDoesTrains]

Repeated applications of WD40 or a penetrating oil might help free it up.

[barney121e]

20 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

It's service sheet 87, available here:

http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=14

http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=308

or here:

https://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/pdf/Hornby Service Sheets/No.087 4-6-0 Black Five.pdf

https://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/pdf/Hornby Service Sheets/No.087A 4-6-0 LMS Class 5.pdf

 

The 'driving' wheel axles are all part number S.2345.  I can't imagine that the one for the centre drivers is not supposed to come out though - full disclosure - I've never disassembled a Hornby Five of that age to that extent.

 

7 minutes ago, 33C said:

Looks rusty, should just tap out. When re-bushing the driving wheels, remember there are two types of plastic bush. A "top hat" type and a smaller, shouldered type. If the axle is the same thickness all the way along, top hat, if a slight step at the ends, the smaller type.

 

6 minutes ago, PaulaDoesTrains said:

Repeated applications of WD40 or a penetrating oil might help free it up.

 

Thanks everyone. Didnt want to start tapping it with a hammer if it shouldnt come out but as it should will give wd40 a shot first and see if that loosens it.

[barney121e]

Got the pin out with a little persuassion. Bushes look ok, so will give it a good clean with contact cleaner and re fit and see if they turn.

[barney121e]

So after some cleaning i have got the wheels to all turn, although when i put them on track, they dont want to turn. However will put the loco back together and hopefully that will sort the problem, if not will look further into it.

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, barney121e said:

So after some cleaning i have got the wheels to all turn, although when i put them on track, they dont want to turn. However will put the loco back together and hopefully that will sort the problem, if not will look further into it.

 

Don't bother - if you haven't got the wheels turning, without the coupling rods, you have to sort out that issue. Any further re-assembly would be a complete waste of time.

 

CJI.

[barney121e]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Don't bother - if you haven't got the wheels turning, without the coupling rods, you have to sort out that issue. Any further re-assembly would be a complete waste of time.

 

CJI.

They turn easily in my hand, but on the track they don't. Will try and see whats happening.

 

[Butler Henderson]

Put the top casting in place and see if the wheels turn when you push it from one end along the track - If not check that the wheels are not pushed too tight on the axles.

[barney121e]

25 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Put the top casting in place and see if the wheels turn when you push it from one end along the track - If not check that the wheels are not pushed too tight on the axles.

Stupid question time. So the front and back wheels are turning fine on the track. But the middle one seems just short of the rail. If i attach a coupling rod, then all 3 wheels turn. Is that right, or should the middle wheel be touching the rail

 

[micklner]

Does it have pick ups fitted to the centre wheels?. If there are none it is not a problem.

[Butler Henderson]

Yes - the centre wheels were deliberately made smaller so that it would get round first radius curves

[cypherman]

I know this is slightly off-topic. But if you need a replacement chassis for this engine, the Triang Hall chassis block is almost a straight swap. You would need the centre driving wheels from the Black 5 and all the chassis attachments such as the front mounting plate etc. Or, if you felt really adventurous, you could turn the engine into a loco powered one instead of a tender powered one. Do the same as above, but leave the X03 motor in place. Take out the motor from the tender, so it is freewheeling. The hardest part is making the rear mounting point for the body.

Edited November 21, 2022 by cypherman

[barney121e]

Thank. The parts seem fine just a little mucky. 

15 hours ago, micklner said:

Does it have pick ups fitted to the centre wheels?. If there are none it is not a problem.

To be honest I can't see any pickups. The motor is in the tender, it's a silver seal model that hooks to the loco so think that is how it gets its power. 

Sorry for being vague, not done steam trains before, but look straightforward enough. I got this loco and another steam train from auction, they both run but definitely need a good clean, especially the other one as can see carpet fibres. 

[cypherman]

3 hours ago, barney121e said:

Thank. The parts seem fine just a little mucky. 

To be honest I can't see any pickups. The motor is in the tender, it's a silver seal model that hooks to the loco so think that is how it gets its power. 

Sorry for being vague, not done steam trains before, but look straightforward enough. I got this loco and another steam train from auction, they both run but definitely need a good clean, especially the other one as can see carpet fibres. 

Hi Barney,

Is the engine permanently coupled to the engine. The Silver Seal designation actually referred to the motor/ It was the start of the use of original Fleischman style Ringfield motors. When referred to wagons and coaches, it meant to signify that the wheels had metal rims rather than plastic. Back to the engine if it is permanently coupled to the tender, then the power was collected from both sides of the engine and there will be fine black and brown wires running from the engine to the tender. If it is not permanently fitted, then the power is collected from one side of the engine and one side of the tender. Another and easy way to check whether it is a Silver Seal engine is that the valve gear on the silver seal engine is wrong. It was lifted straight from the Britannia. They changed this when they made the tender removable. Here are some pictures of the different valve gear. Plus one engine running with a Triang Hall chassis and X03 motor.. I have not sorted the valve gear out on this one yet.

Edited November 22, 2022 by cypherman

[barney121e]

It's a R061 if that helps. The tender has a pin which drops into a piece on the loco, with two pick ups below, which seems is where it picks up the power from. ~On the tender two of the wheels have traction tyres.

[Butler Henderson]

The chassis is live to one side of the wheels so their are no wiper pick ups. The live to axle wheels must be on same same as the tender wheels that have traction tyres.

[ejstubbs]

As BH says.  Pickup from one rail is through the 'driving' wheels on one side of the loco*, via the chassis and the drawbar to the brass coupling pin on the tender; that pin is insulated from the tender chassis, with a wire connecting to one power feed on the motor.  Pickup from the other rail is through the wheels on the opposite side of the tender to the pickup wheels on the loco, through the tender chassis to the motor.

 

This isn't shown well on service sheet S.87, but can be worked out by reference to service sheet S.87A (front and back) as linked from my previous post.

 

* The pickup wheels on the loco are on the left side (looking from the cab).  The pickup wheels on the tender are on the other side (obviously).

[barney121e]

Just a little update. The wheels are all moving and loco running ok, not touched the motor yet. The only issue i now have is when i put the conrods on they dont turn. Time for further investigation.

 

[DCB]

My feeling is that several days ago the chassis should have been placed on an anvil and hit several times with a sledge hammer. The centre axle had obviousy seized for some reason and taking the wheels off these chassis is a big no no.

With the wheels off you will have to reassemble the axles and wheel sets so the crank pinholes are at precisely 90 degrees. This is bad enough with old axle bushes and wheels fitted on the same axles as they already have grooves to match the axle splines, but any deviation and the rods will bind up and skid the wheels.  With new bushes or wheels interchanged this is a bit of a nightmare as there is no guide at all as to where the wheels should go radially.  You can get away with 100 degrees as long as all the wheels are at 100, Gresley got away with 120 but 90 is best.  The  early silver seal chassis had pickups both sides and 6 traction tyres on the tender, so it would pull 20 coaches easily but the Driving wheels habitually skidded.  Later ones had no pickups, and wont pull 20 cpaches.  Oviously the insulated front and rear driving wheels have to be the same side and the traction tyre side of the tender, but these had detachable tenders and are addicted to juddering when the tender drawbar becomes worn and the contact becomes intermittent.  You can fit Patriot (?)  cylinders better wheels, etc but the later loco drive Black 5 is so much better and equally a loco drive Hall chassis with Patriot (?) City(?) cylinders is even more betterer.    I have had these chassis and the best option is sell it on eBay,  or keep t and fit another chassis.  Fixing the one you have will give you an immense sense of satisfaction if you actually succeed, but I would hit it with a hammer.

[The Johnster]

Not what you want to hear, but I’m in agreement with DCB on this.  It’s an old model and from a period when Hornby were not producing their best or most reliable stuff.  The centre driving wheels (‘big’ wheels) do not drive the loco, which has the motor in the tender and, as you’ve discovered, the centre pair are (deliberately) undersized in order to allow the loco to negotiate R1 curves, which doesn’t help the power pickup from the rails.  This arrangement means that the driving wheels and the motion (the pistons, connecting and coupling rods, and valve gear, the shiny metal bits) must be assembled perfectly and the wheels perfectly quartered (the 90 degree offset DCB mentions) and running freely or they will bind and the loco will sort of slide along the rails pushed by the powered tender.  Hornby had jigs to do this in the factory, and the models were still prone to jamming and skidding; with all due respect there is little chance of a successful rebuild at home. 
 

And it gets worse.  Hornby stuff of that era, generically Triang as that firm bought the rights to the Hornby Name when Hornby Dublo went under in the 60s, inherited the Triang practice of making the locos and rolling stock sit 2mm too high off the rails (again a cheat to enable toy-like curves to be used), so the buffers are too high and will not align with locos and stock from other makes (or later Hornby!).  With the loco powered by the tender, there was an opportunity missed to tool out the incorrect and unsightly plastic skirting beneath the boiler, used on older RTR models to hide the motor and gears which are in the tender on this loco.  You can see this comparing DCB’s photos of 45192 and 44808; the latter has daylight visible where it should be beneath the boiler, which is round all the way round if you see what I mean.  
 

The ‘ringfield’ motor in the tender is not Hornby’s most glorious moment either (to be fair most RTR comanies were using them in those days).  ‘Ringfield’ alludes to the very powerful and reliable motors Hornby Dublo used in their later days, which had the drawback of filling the cab space.  The later type in your Black 5 is a low-quality plastic-bodied piece of kit that has to run at high revs to develop any useful power, and is then geared down through plastic spur gears to allow controllable speeds, and I use the term ‘controllable’ advisedly.  Slow running and smooth stops and starts were next to impossible because of the friction in the gear train, worsened by the metal retaining clips that pressed in on them, and the gears are prone to splitting.  And the traction tyres needed to enable the feeble motor to pull a reasonable load spread crud  around your track, making the already poor 4-wheel pickup even worse in performance. 
 

It’s a poor model in terms of scale and detail, and a poor runner even in good condition, which yours isn’t.  Not a very well designed mechanism, best described as cheap and nasty tbh (‘of it’s era’ though).  It sits too high, has visibly undersized centre drivers, boiler skirts, and the wrong valve gear. The work needed to improve it is not worth the bother; it can be made to run, anything can with enough money, tools, and time, but I’d say you’d be better off with a more recent better performing better detailed loco drive version, which will be more cost effective anyway by the time you’ve bought new self-quartering Markits wheels and axles for this old clunker even when you’ve written off whatever you paid for it, especially if you factor in the time you’ll waste on it. 
 

Don’t take a hammer to it though!  It can be a background shed lurker or shelf queen at least.  Although destroying it would remove the lingering temptation ti do something with it…

[barney121e]

So have been working on my Black 5 problem. Decided to get another chassis however this has sorted one problem but now getting no power to the tender.

 

I have checked the wheel spacing and i cant fit my back to back gauge between the wheels. So i guess this could be my problem. But before i try and adjust the wheels, can anyone suggest if this would be the problem at all.

 

Also been playing with the old chassis and can get the coupling rods going, but one side keeps popping out the wheels. Could this be a wheel spacing problem again, or could worn bushes and axles be at fault.

 

Any help much appreciated.

[The Johnster]

More likely to be a quartering issue as the rods bind and pull or push the wheels off the axles.  Is it the pickup or dead side of the loco chassis?; knowing this might help to isolate an axle/wheel hub interface problem.  Wear between the axles and wheels occurs when you take the wheels off the axles off the axles; Hornby never intended for you to do this, and would have sold you a complete replacement wheelset but this will have been unavailable for many years now. 

 

Undersized back to back measurement means that the wheels are too narrow in gauge, and are possibly fouling on parts of the chassis or pulling the conrods inwards and causing them to bind or twisiting the crosshead to jam on the slide bars.  To get them to gauge you have to force them outwards on the axles, ensuring that they remain square to the axle and retain their quartering, not easy.  The trouble with this sort of older loco is that you can't get the spares, or if you can they are suffering from the same issues as you are trying to solve, and you end up chasing bad money with good and wasting time and effort to no productive end.  It is difficult to admit defeat, or make the decision to stop the project and write it off to experience before it goes too far.  Sourcing parts sucks time, and is frustrating.  Sometimes it's better to give up early and use your time and cash on stuff that will work!

 

Not what you want to hear, and not much help I'm afraid, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em, and trying to give you the best advice I can.

 

Shed lurker.

Edited December 2, 2022 by The Johnster

[33C]

The centre crankpin must have all the spacers on to prevent the rods popping out. Make sure the centre crankpin is fully extended through the wheel by checking the rear of the wheel, the shoulder of same should be seated snuggly in the recess. A spot of superglue holds it firm if necessary. If no power is getting to the motor, check if a sprung, brass washer is present under the drawbar, and the surfaces are clean/shiny. As for the back to backs, does the chassis run through the points OK? As for the original chassis, I would go back to basics and completely strip it down, bushes and all. Draw a cross on a piece of card, 90° and 180° exactly. Put under the live wheel/axle with it's boss at bottom. Put a new Bush in the insulated wheel and place on the axle end, aligned with the line at the 90° mark. Light pressure to hold and then close up in a vice ensuring the wheel bosses are out of the jaws to prevent wobbly wheels! The back to back gauge can be placed in/on the vice to give accuracy. Remember, it came out of the factory fine and can be fine again. You may be missing something obvious so start at the beginning! Good luck. Quartering is not a black art and the more times I do it the easier it gets!