Cambrian Railways 2-plank fixed sided wagon - information wanted

[magmouse]

So, this arrived today - an impulse eBay purchase:

 

 

From memory, it seems to be an mm1 models Cambrian Railways 2-plank fixed side open wagon, though as the website is now down I can't check. At least, it is a resin moulding, has Cambrian Railways transfers on the other side, and looks very similar to a model in the Science Museum collection - see here: https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co439075/model-2-plank-wagon-model-railway-wagon

 

My questions are:

 

 - can anyone confirm my identification? Notable features are the fixed sides, iron/steel under frame, and the distinctive U-channel end stantions.

 - does anyone have any photos of the prototype? I'd rather not rely on copying the Science Museum model, very good as it is.

 - My period is 1908, so I assume for the livery I should be looking at something like the drop-side 2-plank in this post: 

 

it would be useful to have any livery details, and wagon numbers for this type, beyond the info in the documents linked in this post.

 - does anyone have a load capacity for this type, and a typical tare weight.

 - anything else anyone can offer...

 

My plan is to do this up - fix the wonky brake lever guard, a bit of other fettling, repaint - and give it a load of slates, to be delivered to my fictional Dorset location, along with a load of bricks in an LSWR 3-plank, and some timber in GWR 4-planks. There must be some building work happening in Netherport...

 

 

Nick.

 

[ChrisN]

3 minutes ago, magmouse said:

So, this arrived today - an impulse eBay purchase:

 

 

From memory, it seems to be an mm1 models Cambrian Railways 2-plank fixed side open wagon, though as the website is now down I can't check. At least, it is a resin moulding, has Cambrian Railways transfers on the other side, and looks very similar to a model in the Science Museum collection - see here: https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co439075/model-2-plank-wagon-model-railway-wagon

 

My questions are:

 

 - can anyone confirm my identification? Notable features are the fixed sides, iron/steel under frame, and the distinctive U-channel end stantions.

 - does anyone have any photos of the prototype? I'd rather not rely on copying the Science Museum model, very good as it is.

 - My period is 1908, so I assume for the livery I should be looking at something like the drop-side 2-plank in this post: 

 

it would be useful to have any livery details, and wagon numbers for this type, beyond the info in the documents linked in this post.

 - does anyone have a load capacity for this type, and a typical tare weight.

 - anything else anyone can offer...

 

My plan is to do this up - fix the wonky brake lever guard, a bit of other fettling, repaint - and give it a load of slates, to be delivered to my fictional Dorset location, along with a load of bricks in an LSWR 3-plank, and some timber in GWR 4-planks. There must be some building work happening in Netherport...

 

 

Nick.

 

 

Hi Nick,

Without checking, I think this does look Cambrian.  They had drop side 2 plank wagons, but I have seen at least one photo of a fixed sided one, but I think from about 1880. (I have a nasty feeling that when it was posted on my thread by @corneliuslundie I did not download it so do not have it now.)  The livery would be grey, pale I think, but with dirt....., and black ironwork.  It would have the Cam Rys with the Prince of Wales feathers in between, as in the photo.  The early 2 plankers had a carrying capacity of 7 tons.  In the Cambrian wagon document, the most likely numbers would be low ones, so 44 would do as it also had a GWR number, so it was not in a bad condition.  In the document the drop sides are listed as 2plk/DS and without checking all 1740 entries I have not seen any that are not DS above number 99.

 

I am not sure if that has added anything.

 

I think the photo is also in C.C. Greens Cambrian Album Vol 1 and the wagon is sitting on the pier at Aberdovey.

[magmouse]

38 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

I am not sure if that has added anything.

I definitely has added something - for one thing, it makes me feel more confident in my sense this is the mm1 kit for a Cambrian 2-plank fixed sided wagon. I know the kit existed, as I had it listed on my planned wagons, but I wasn’t 100% this was it.

 

Thanks for your input - very helpful.

 

Nick.

[corneliuslundie]

The Cambrian had plenty of fixed sided 2-plankers, but it is often difficult to separate them out from the dropside ones. Ironically, I have yet to find a drawing pre 1892 of a  dropside wagon but several of fixed side ones.

There was certainly a batch of 8 ton 14 fixed sided ones in 1897 from Oswestry: Nos. 77, 87, 353, 745, 763, 769, 816, 817, 876, 933, 1118, 1139, 1185.

Ashbury supplied a batch of 8-ton fixed sided 2-plankers numbered 1750-1799 but whereas Mike Lloyd says they were delivered in 1896 I have the year as 1886 from Richard E vans, but his list shows them as dropside!

There was a batch of 10 ton 2-plank fixed sided wagons obtained from the Metropolitan company in 1893, numbers 1900-1949. Mike Lloyd drew these, drawing ref CAM/W/8, but it is hard to tell whether the headstocks are steel - though they might well be.

Without any firm evidence. I am tempted to say that the most likely contender is the Metropolitan batch, as most Cambrian wagons had timber underframes until pretty late. 

7 tons would be pretty early as from about 1880 most opens were 8 tons.

Sorry not to be more helpful.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

25 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

The Cambrian had plenty of fixed sided 2-plankers, but it is often difficult to separate them out from the dropside ones. Ironically, I have yet to find a drawing pre 1892 of a  dropside wagon but several of fixed side ones.

There was certainly a batch of 8 ton 14 fixed sided ones in 1897 from Oswestry: Nos. 77, 87, 353, 745, 763, 769, 816, 817, 876, 933, 1118, 1139, 1185.

Ashbury supplied a batch of 8-ton fixed sided 2-plankers numbered 1750-1799 but whereas Mike Lloyd says they were delivered in 1896 I have the year as 1886 from Richard E vans, but his list shows them as dropside!

There was a batch of 10 ton 2-plank fixed sided wagons obtained from the Metropolitan company in 1893, numbers 1900-1949. Mike Lloyd drew these, drawing ref CAM/W/8, but it is hard to tell whether the headstocks are steel - though they might well be.

Without any firm evidence. I am tempted to say that the most likely contender is the Metropolitan batch, as most Cambrian wagons had timber underframes until pretty late. 

7 tons would be pretty early as from about 1880 most opens were 8 tons.

Sorry not to be more helpful.

Jonathan

 

Sorry, I was looking at my list quickly last night, so missed the higher numbers. 

[magmouse]

8 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Sorry not to be more helpful.

Thanks for replying, and thanks for clarifying the lack of clarity! In the absence of more concrete evidence such as a photo, I’ll assume this is one of the Metropolitan ones, and number it accordingly.

 

Nick.

[corneliuslundie]

And you can always sue me when you find out that I was wrong!

Oops. Typo. Richard Evans and Mike Lloyd both have the Metropolitan wagons as 1897. But Richard Evans, I now note, suggests that they were 4-plank!

I have asked him if he has any hard evidence. Unfortunately I cannot ask Mike Lloyd.

Jonathan

Edited November 22, 2022 by corneliuslundie
Correction

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And you can always sue me when you find out that I was wrong!

Oops. Typo. Richard Evans and Mike Lloyd both have the Metropolitan wagons as 1897. But Richard Evans, I now note, suggests that they were 4-plank!

I have asked him if he has any hard evidence. Unfortunately I cannot ask Mike Lloyd.

Jonathan

 

Thanks.

 

The good thing is, I'm not obsessive about having the correct numbers on wagons. If I can, I will, but I can't bring myself to be that fussed (though I sort-of know I should be...)

 

Nick.

[corneliuslundie]

I asked Richard Evans if he could throw any light on these wagons. He has confirmed that in his view Harold Morgan made an error in transcribing details of the Metropolitan wagons - I have sympathy, having spent time trying to transcribe such registers. Mike Lloyd's drawing appears to have been made based on the original Metropolitan drawing. And he agrees with me that these seem to be the only steel underframed 2-plankers. As a bonus he sent me the attached photo of one of them.

 

Case closed, I think.

Jonathan

[magmouse]

10 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I asked Richard Evans if he could throw any light on these wagons. He has confirmed that in his view Harold Morgan made an error in transcribing details of the Metropolitan wagons - I have sympathy, having spent time trying to transcribe such registers. Mike Lloyd's drawing appears to have been made based on the original Metropolitan drawing. And he agrees with me that these seem to be the only steel underframed 2-plankers. As a bonus he sent me the attached photo of one of them.

 

Case closed, I think.

Jonathan

This is great - thank you. It’s especially useful to have a clear shot of the brake gear, and the double vee hanger which the model doesn’t currently have. It’s unusual to get a good view of the interior, as well, though mine will be mostly full of slates in due course.

 

There is no sign of a painted wagon number - would this be on a cast plate on the solebar? Any end lettering?

 

Nick.

 

[corneliuslundie]

The Cambrian until a pretty late date only put the number on the numberplate and on the ends. It makes identifying individual wagons a real pain. Here is an earlier example of wagons at Aberdovey where you can see the number, tho8ugh not at all clear.

 

Jonathan

 

[magmouse]

24 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

The Cambrian until a pretty late date only put the number on the numberplate and on the ends. It makes identifying individual wagons a real pain. Here is an earlier example of wagons at Aberdovey where you can see the number, tho8ugh not at all clear.

 

Jonathan

 

Great, thanks, most helpful.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

On 21/11/2022 at 22:36, magmouse said:

I'd rather not rely on copying the Science Museum model, very good as it is.

 

If I was going to trust any model, it would be one by J.P. Richards.

[Compound2632]

On 23/11/2022 at 20:32, corneliuslundie said:

Here is an earlier example of wagons at Aberdovey 

 

Those have got the wooden packing block between headstock and buffer guide, but they also appear to have self-contained buffers...

[Compound2632]

On 23/11/2022 at 09:15, corneliuslundie said:

As a bonus he sent me the attached photo of one of them.

 

That's an enlargement from a Derby official of Birmingham Lawley Street in 1912:

 

[Embedded link to Derby Registers.]

 

What has long intrigued me about that Cambrian wagon is the apparent two-tone livery! Presumably the lower, paler, plank is a replacement. But has the lettering been repainted on that plank only? Or are the two planks originally from different wagons and got swapped over in the works?

[magmouse]

Yes, the two-tone planking is curious. I think your swapped plank explanation seems most likely - 'borrowing' a plank from a wagon needing substantial work to get one just needing a new plank would seem like a pragmatic way to run things.

 

I love these goods yard photos - so much detail to look at. So many questions too - what is the load in the MR 3-planker, the other side of the double bolster? A round, pale thing with three slightly irregular things on top, which look almost like rocks put there to weigh down a tarpaulin, but that doesn't seem very likely. A higher resolution clip of that bit of the picture would be interesting.

 

It's useful too to get a good view of the inside of wagons. When modelling the interiors, its good to know where to pitch the overall tone. Getting a realistic bare wood effect is hard enough, but I always find myself going darker and grubbier because it looks more convincing, even though the photos show relatively pale tones in many cases.

 

Nick.

[Poggy1165]

The photo of an iron/steel framed wagon is valuable, because I distinctly remember a debate (on the WRRC forum I think) about whether the wagon represented by the JLTRT/MM1 kit actually existed. I built mine anyway, but had to guess a number. At least I now know there was such an animal.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

The photo of an iron/steel framed wagon is valuable, because I distinctly remember a debate (on the WRRC forum I think) about whether the wagon represented by the JLTRT/MM1 kit actually existed. I built mine anyway, but had to guess a number. At least I now know there was such an animal.

 

No doubt the kit took this photo as a point of reference.