Flatbottom rail and rail chairs?

[MarshLane]

A friend has asked for some advice. He is building a small 009 layout, based (very) loosely on Ffestiniog practice.  The FR has been using flat-bottomed rail for many years (pre-preservation) and he's asked what rail/chairs etc, he should used to handbuild the track.  My track knowledge is limited, so I feel rather than give wrong info, it was best to throw it out to the more knowledgable ones on here.  We had looked at Peco Code 60 rail (that is actually used for OO gauge conductor rail) but that is a) expensive and b) I am struggling to find any chairs, so it would be a copper clad soldered approach if we went down that route.

 

My later thought was ScaleFour Society Code 55 rail - but then my knowledge runs out.  Does flat bottom still use chairs or is it spiked?  Given that this is representing 2-foot gauge, I think its probably spiked, I am wondering how he can create a decent impression of this in 4mm?  Is it best for him to stay with copper clad and solder, or is there any way in which he could create the right view with laser cut sleepers?  He's not a begineer at model making, but hasn't been down the hand built track road before.

 

The layout track design (which is not complicated) is now drawn up in Templot, so I suggested a laser cutter or similar may be able to cut or CNC mill birch ply sleeper panels for him (no idea of the cost, so that may be a non-starter, and there is the waist element).     Trackwork 'off-scene' would be copper clad sleepers and solder to create the panels for speed.

 

Any ideas that I can pass onto him would be welcome.  I get the feeling this will probably start as his Christmas hobby project!!

Rich

[Miss Prism]

If soldered copperclad is being adopted off-scene, I suggest use it on-scene.

 

Code 55 seems suitable. At least it is available.

[Grovenor]

Andy Reichert at P87 stores does a range of parts for flat bottom track including the simple baseplates often used with spikes, and the spikes! You really need photos of the track to see what you need. The Ffestiniog was also, unusually for NG a user of bullhead and chairs.

NB Chairs are not used with FB rail and it can be laid with or without baseplates.

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

If soldered copperclad is being adopted off-scene, I suggest use it on-scene.

 

Code 55 seems suitable. At least it is available.

Thanks Miss P, yes I had thought that, I am just not sure what his soldering is like.  Off-scene it won't matter too much, but I know he's looking for a good track work 'on-scene'.

 

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

Andy Reichert at P87 stores does a range of parts for flat bottom track including the simple baseplates often used with spikes, and the spikes! You really need photos of the track to see what you need. The Ffestiniog was also, unusually for NG a user of bullhead and chairs.

NB Chairs are not used with FB rail and it can be laid with or without baseplates.

Thans Keith.  Thats interesting, although I am not sure the baseplates would look right for UK narrow gauge - although I have only had a very quick glance.  Bullhead would be nice, perhaps in sidings, but I cannot find any Code 55 bullhead around.

 

Rich

 

[Grovenor]

Smaller bullhead is available for 2mm finescale and for TT3, so you would need to check which would be the closest in size.

This picture shows both BH with chairs and FB with small baseplates and spring spikes.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Grovenor

[Miss Prism]

32 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

I am just not sure what his soldering is like.

 

I think it's called practice.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

3 hours ago, MarshLane said:

The FR has been using flat-bottomed rail for many years (pre-preservation)

It has, but it didn't use flat bottom pre-preservation. I can probably find out when they started using flat bottom, but my guess is it began with the Deviation in the late 1960s. Everything beyond Dduallt was laid in flat bottom.

 

FR flat bottom rail is pretty much all 75 lb, I think (I recall some 60 lb, but I cannot remember where that was used). 129 mm tall, which works out as code 65 in 4 mm, if you can get such a thing. Since 9 mm is over-gauge, I might be inclined to go slightly bigger to get the right look - 75 lb flat bottom rail in 2 ft gauge looks BIG.

 

Pretty much every type of fastening has been used over the years, from dog spikes to baseplates with pandrols. There used to be loads of screw and clips, which was probably the most common type of fastening. Personally, I struggle to tell the difference between chaired track and flat bottom in 4 mm, and there's no way I could make out what fastenings a model is supposed to represent.

 

2 hours ago, Grovenor said:

NB Chairs are not used with FB rail

Not usually, it is true, but the Manx Northern Railway had some sections of flat bottom in cast iron chairs with wooden keys, to add weight in areas where the formation was rather suspect. I haven't come across this elsewhere, but I doubt it was unique.

 

54 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

This picture shows both BH with chairs and FB with small baseplates and spring spikes.

The flatbottom in that picture is on baseplates with pandrols and fastened with screws. I think the FR did use spring spikes (without baseplates), but they weren't very common as I recall.

[MarshLane]

10 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

It has, but it didn't use flat bottom pre-preservation. I can probably find out when they started using flat bottom, but my guess is it began with the Deviation in the late 1960s. Everything beyond Dduallt was laid in flat bottom.

 

FR flat bottom rail is pretty much all 75 lb, I think (I recall some 60 lb, but I cannot remember where that was used). 129 mm tall, which works out as code 65 in 4 mm, if you can get such a thing. Since 9 mm is over-gauge, I might be inclined to go slightly bigger to get the right look - 75 lb flat bottom rail in 2 ft gauge looks BIG.

Thanks. I’d forgotten when I looked it up on Festipedia that the page was talking about flat bottomed rail on NWNGR/WHR routes! This page talks about the various rail types  https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Rail_Types

 

The closest to Code 65 is some Code 75 Bullhead rail that C&L do. So that may be the choice I suspect, with 4mm sleepers cut in half as per FR history.

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

Guys,

Just to say thanks for everyones input, my mate is going to do an order for some Code 75 Bullhead rail and appropriate chairs with C&L over the weekend, pointwork controlled by servos, which he fancies looking at the MERG boards for control of - should be an interesting project for him!

 

Rich

[AndyID]

On 02/12/2022 at 08:17, MarshLane said:

Guys,

Just to say thanks for everyones input, my mate is going to do an order for some Code 75 Bullhead rail and appropriate chairs with C&L over the weekend, pointwork controlled by servos, which he fancies looking at the MERG boards for control of - should be an interesting project for him!

 

Rich

 

Just a note to point out that the Code 75 Bullhead supplied by SMP (now ???) is the correct height but it's a bit narrower than it should be for 00 scale. Might be a good choice for this application if it is available.

[Stephen Freeman]

If your friend is in the UK, EDM sell both code 55 and 70 FB Micro Engineering FB. If in the US then obviously order accordingly. If you are looking for UK main line FB Peco code 83 fits their Pandrols.

[MarshLane]

Thanks Andy and Stephen,

I think the Code 75 Bullhead will be the way forward (as you say Andy, its narrowness might work well) - I have just looked at EDM before suggesting it to my mate, who is in the UK yes, but unfortunately EDM are out of stock. I have sent them an email to ask if there is any indication of when new supplies will be available, but I suspect it may be a case that Paul waits until he has a variety of items required, given import duties and postage etc..  But thanks for pointing it out @Stephen Freeman.

 

Rich

[Grovenor]

The 3mm society has code 60 bullhead which would be more appropriate for Ffestiniog track. Code 75 is for full size railways.

[MarshLane]

20 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

The 3mm society has code 60 bullhead which would be more appropriate for Ffestiniog track. Code 75 is for full size railways.

Thanks - I think my mate has placed the order with C&L over the weekend, but the downside with the 3mm Society is that you need to be a member, which adds another £20 on to the cost of materials.  That may have been a step too far for him, but we'll see how it all works out.

 

Thanks to everyone for their help with this, really appreciated.  I'll suggest that he updates this thread with progress as he makes it!

 

Rich

Edited December 5, 2022 by MarshLane

[hayfield]

On 05/12/2022 at 18:59, MarshLane said:

Thanks - I think my mate has placed the order with C&L over the weekend, but the downside with the 3mm Society is that you need to be a member, which adds another £20 on to the cost of materials.  That may have been a step too far for him, but we'll see how it all works out.

 

Thanks to everyone for their help with this, really appreciated.  I'll suggest that he updates this thread with progress as he makes it!

 

Rich

 

 

Rich

 

I had the same thought about joining the Scale Seven Society regarding Exactoscale 7mm scale components, until I looked at the prices of components. With a modest order I could recoup easily the joining fee simply as the cost of components are so much cheaper

[MarshLane]

Just a quick update, by way of thanks to everyone who contributed. A quirk of fate meant that there was not time to place the order with C&L when I thought it had been, and having read a printed copy of this thread, we looked at some 3mm trackwork images and having priced it up, including membership of the 3mm Society, it will not work out too much different price wise. As John ( @hayfield ) commented, the Code 60 bullhead rail is vastly cheaper through the Society, and with having five hidden sidings to lay I think it will actually end up working out more cost-effective. 
 

Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

Rich