Working A Colliery Exchange – Track And Practice

steveNCB7754 · December 18, 2022

Firstly, apologies in advance for the length of this posting.

My rough diagram below, shows the suggested track-work for accessing a colliery’s exchange sidings from a double-track main (or secondary) line in the days of SDJR (later, BR (WR)) steam. This diagram is based on the model track layout for Jerry Clifford’s ‘Foxcote New Pit’ 2mm Finescale layout, featured in the recent MRJ #293 (2022). What I want to know, is how this exchange would have been prototypically worked by a ‘trip working’ of the time and whether the track layout shown is correct/sufficient for this to happen. This is probably glaringly obvious to the knowledgeable, but I am not, and so want to know how this worked in reality. For the purposes of discussion (and obviously correct me if I am wrong), I am assuming/proposing one or two things at this point;

1. ‘UP’ is to Bath and presumably is the destination of the ‘Fulls’ (wagons loaded with coal).

2. ‘DOWN’ is to Radstock and it’s coalfield, the source of the coal and thus the destination of the ‘Empties’ (empty coal wagons returning to pits for reloading, or perhaps sometimes re-loaded with pit props, etc.).

3. The ‘Halt’ is shown as-is, because it is there in the MRJ article (this allows Jerry to run other ‘main line’ traffic such as passenger workings, as the Halt ostensibly serves a local village or villages). What I do not know, is whether the ‘cross-over’ pointwork in the Halt is really only there because of the Halt, or would still be there even if there wasn’t a Halt.

4. I assume the use of a ‘Double Slip’ in the exchange track-work here, is a space-saving expedient and probably not what would have been used in real life.

5. Train makeup is (at a minimum); Engine (at the head-end), wagons (non-fitted), Brake Van at the tail end (in this period).

6. Presumably, there would also be a colliery engine on-hand to assist in some way (the layout does have one), although I have read about ‘workings’ in South Wales, where the trip locomotive was also the one rostered to shunt the colliery sidings themselves (perhaps at collieries without their own locomotive).

So, can somebody explain, step-by-step, the sequence of events/movements (from any direction), to accomplish the exchange with the colliery, because when I think about the logistics (given the track-work shown), that raises a whole load of questions to which I don’t know the answer. This is almost certainly due to my lack of understanding about what is (or isn't) either likely or legally permitted.

The main question for me is; Can (legally) the colliery (on the ‘UP’ side), be accessed by a ‘trip’ working locomotive arriving on the ‘DOWN’ line (with 'Empties' for example), or (because all the points are ‘Trailing’) does this mean that all visits to the colliery (whether to collect ‘Fulls’ or drop-off ‘Empties’) have to be undertaken by an ‘UP’ train in all cases? Were the latter to be so, then presumably ‘Empties’ arriving on the ‘DOWN’ line from Bath, would nonetheless have to pass this colliery by, until such time that they could be formed-up into a train travelling towards Bath again on the ‘UP’ line.

The track-work shown, would in theory allow a ‘DOWN’ train to reverse through the points to access the ‘UP’ side, but doing so would still leave the engine at the head-end and thus be going engine-first into the colliery sidings.

What puzzles me about one of the images of the model itself, is that a SDJR ‘mainline’ locomotive is shown propelling a rake of wagons (presumably, 'Empties', so from Bath?) down into the sidings off ‘the main’ (what I am calling the ‘UP’) line, with the Brake Van between the engine and said wagons. For the life of me, I cannot fathom how this locomotive could have got into that position in the first place, unless; it arrived as a second ‘light engine’ on the ‘UP’ line, or was an SDJR locomotive already at the colliery (ready to relieve the ‘trip’ engine of it’s load by accessing the rear of the ‘trip’ working via the cross-over pointwork), or it is the ‘trip’ engine and it had temporarily disappeared off-scene towards Radstock, in order to gain access to the ‘UP’ line (effectively ‘running round’ its own train).

Finally, the only other point I can think of (at the moment) is; would trip-workings consist only of wagons for one colliery at a time, or operate like pickup freights, containing wagons destined for, or to be collected from, other collieries?

Phew!!

TIA

Steve N

Edited December 18, 2022 by steveNCB7754
Diagram was below text, so changed 'Above' to 'Below'.

Flying Pig · December 18, 2022

37 minutes ago, steveNCB7754 said:

This diagram is based on the model track layout for Jerry Clifford’s ‘Foxcote New Pit’ 2mm Finescale layout, featured in the recent MRJ #293 (2022).

Jerry is @queensquare on here and may be able to explain himself best.

LMS2968 · December 18, 2022

The genuine article.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.6&lat=51.29720&lon=-2.42372&layers=168&b=1

steveNCB7754 · December 19, 2022

4 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

The genuine article.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.6&lat=51.29720&lon=-2.42372&layers=168&b=1

Wow! Should have thought of checking there myself - now I've seen that though, I almost wish I hadn't asked!

DCB · December 19, 2022

I can't see any similarities between the NLS map and the plan.

The layout needs two crossovers. to reverse direction, The same up train would probably leave empties and collect fulls during a single visit.

Train leaves "Radstock" with empties for New Pit.

Leaves Brake on main and sets empties back into exchange sidings. Collects fulls from other siding re attaches brake and heads for Bath. That's if the sidings hold 20/30/40 fulls or what ever makes up a paying load or what the load limit is up to the summit.

Empties return to Radstock together with empties for the Radstock Collieries, and the cycle re starts. At a suitable time Colliery engine collects some or all empties and propels them to the colliery vigourously. returning slowly with fulls. Colliery would be above main line so loco at downhill end of train so no brake van needed.

Alternatively it could well be the empties are the head end of a train of Fulls from "Radstock" which the train engine detaches after stopping and probably putting down (on) several wagon brakes as well as the brake van brake, and performs the empties for fulls swap. Some Pick Up goods ran to 60 plus wagons, Two opens a Pannier and a Toad was very much something found at the death of a branch. Even the largest freight locos were known to shunt wayside sidings on Pick up goods duties , there are pictures of a Royal Scot in Shap quarries, so an S&D 7F would be ideal as would a 4F. S&D 9Fs were not used on the coal runs, only through trains. I suppose the train could be banked and still stop to swap wagons but I would need to see photographic evidence to believe it.

Edited December 19, 2022 by DCB
add word Van to Brake to make Brake Van

steveNCB7754 · December 19, 2022

9 hours ago, DCB said:

I can't see any similarities between the NLS map and the plan.

The layout needs two crossovers. to reverse direction, The same up train would probably leave empties and collect fulls during a single visit.

Train leaves "Radstock" with empties for New Pit.

Leaves Brake on main and sets empties back into exchange sidings. Collects fulls from other siding re attaches brake and heads for Bath. That's if the sidings hold 20/30/40 fulls or what ever makes up a paying load or what the load limit is up to the summit.

Empties return to Radstock together with empties for the Radstock Collieries, and the cycle re starts. At a suitable time Colliery engine collects some or all empties and propels them to the colliery vigourously. returning slowly with fulls. Colliery would be above main line so loco at downhill end of train so no brake van needed.

Alternatively it could well be the empties are the head end of a train of Fulls from "Radstock" which the train engine detaches after stopping and probably putting down (on) several wagon brakes as well as the brake van brake, and performs the empties for fulls swap. Some Pick Up goods ran to 60 plus wagons, Two opens a Pannier and a Toad was very much something found at the death of a branch. Even the largest freight locos were known to shunt wayside sidings on Pick up goods duties , there are pictures of a Royal Scot in Shap quarries, so an S&D 7F would be ideal as would a 4F. S&D 9Fs were not used on the coal runs, only through trains. I suppose the train could be banked and still stop to swap wagons but I would need to see photographic evidence to believe it.

Thanks for that.

Yes, the only way I could get it to work in my head, is indeed if there was another cross-over 'off scene' (so in the 'Radstock' fiddle yard), to allow the locomotive to run round its own train. My problem therefore, was labouring under the misguided notion that the 'Empties' returning to the colliery from Bath (on the 'DOWN' line), could possibly be dropped off there directly on the way back (using that crossover in the 'Halt' platform road), rather than have to pass by on their way to Radstock before being brought to the colliery later, in the next 'UP' train.

However, your (valid) point that as the "Colliery would be above main line so [Colliery] loco at downhill end of train so no brake van needed", would lead to a problem (given the trackwork shown in my diagram). In that scenario, the colliery loco would then end up trapped at the end of the 'Fulls' siding shown and would need a run-round loop in order to get out from behind those wagons. Again, in South Wales I believe, there were sometimes spare Brake Vans available (brought in as required), so that a 'Fulls' train could be made up in the Exchange siding in advance, either by the Colliery engine, or by the visiting mainline freight engine when it shunted the sidings.

"... it could well be the empties are the head end of a train of Fulls from "Radstock"...". Yes, in many ways this whole scenario is no different to a goods (or even 'mixed') train stopping at a station (with a run-round loop) to shunt the single goods siding, whether on a double-track line or even a 'single track with passing places' rural line.

Thanks again.

Steve N

DCB · December 19, 2022

6 minutes ago, steveNCB7754 said:

Thanks for that.

Yes, the only way I could get it to work in my head, is indeed if there was another cross-over 'off scene' (so in the 'Radstock' fiddle yard), to allow the locomotive to run round its own train. My problem therefore, was labouring under the misguided notion that the 'Empties' returning to the colliery from Bath (on the 'DOWN' line), could possibly be dropped off there directly on the way back (using that crossover in the 'Halt' platform road), rather than have to pass by on their way to Radstock before being brought to the colliery later, in the next 'UP' train.

However, your (valid) point that as the "Colliery would be above main line so [Colliery] loco at downhill end of train so no brake van needed", would lead to a problem (given the trackwork shown in my diagram). In that scenario, the colliery loco would then end up trapped at the end of the 'Fulls' siding shown and would need a run-round loop in order to get out from behind those wagons. Again, in South Wales I believe, there were sometimes spare Brake Vans available (brought in as required), so that a 'Fulls' train could be made up in the Exchange siding in advance, either by the Colliery engine, or by the visiting mainline freight engine when it shunted the sidings.

"... it could well be the empties are the head end of a train of Fulls from "Radstock"...". Yes, in many ways this whole scenario is no different to a goods (or even 'mixed') train stopping at a station (with a run-round loop) to shunt the single goods siding, whether on a double-track line or even a 'single track with passing places' rural line.

Thanks again.

Steve N

From your plan the colliery loco would be at the right hand end so trapped against the end of the head shunt not the fulls siding If you didn't have that reversal then you could have the colliery below the main line and still propel in but I like your idea of the head shunt as it would keep run away trains clear of the main line. My old layout had a colliery exchange, three lines , fulls empties and run round. but that was at the end of a branch and my main line trains were twice the length the colliery locos could manage. All roads went to the fiddle yard so full wagons went round anti clockwise and empties clockwise. It was weird

Michael Hodgson · December 19, 2022

2 hours ago, DCB said:

All roads went to the fiddle yard so full wagons went round anti clockwise and empties clockwise. It was weird

For those who worry about duplication of RTR wagon numbers, that's an excuse to have the same number on two wagons, one of them loaded, the other empty - provided the duplicate is in the fiddle yard whilst the other one is on the scenic part of the layout.

The Johnster · December 20, 2022

But you'd need to ensure that any weathering was applied identically to both the loaded and the empty representation of the same wagon. And there are plenty of numbers available; I have a fleet of some 31 minerals of various types and prototypical origins on Cwmdimbath, and no number duplications, a result of judicious buying of RTR and kits, and the use of Cambridge Custom Transfers available from that nice Mr Isherwood of this very parish, no connection but very satisfied customer. Large quantities of individually numbered wagons can be achieved in this way even before one resorts to making them up out of cut'n'shut transfers or even the desperation of applying individual digits, the absolute limit of what my chunky little piggyfingers can reliably manage in 4mm and it takes several hours to do a single wagon...

A heavily weathered XPO with a clearly more recently applied and cleaner BR P- number makes a distinct statement about the period I model, nominally 1948-58. The muck was wiped off the numbers with whatever rag was to hand (incuding the shunter's jacket sleeve) whenever they got too indistinct for the staff to read clearly, and don't forget that colliery weighbridge clerks had to do it from inside the weighbridge office a dozen or so feet away through rain-streaked windows, sometimes at night in poorly lit conditions; getting it right was essential to correct invoicing and the colliery's profitability.

I've been accused here of being a rivet counter, which I strenuously deny, and while I try to get things right as best I can, I am not such an obsessive rivet counter that I will insist on all my XPOs carrying 100% appropriately correct BR P- numbers for liveries you can barely discern under perfectly prototypical heavy weathering, especially as the RTR ones are usually at least to some extent generic anyway; close enough for jazz will do for Rule 1 for me.

My apologies for offending proper wagon afficionados; youse guys are both an inspiration and a reliable source of such accurate information as can be gleaned to all of us!