Tinkering with 7mm scale kit built locos

[hayfield]

 

 

Last year I bought two Springside kits, 48xx to rebuild the body and finish and a 45xx which has been part built. Springside have sold me the missing parts for the 48xx and the missing parts for the 45xx are on order.

 

I also found out that a 14xx I bought two or three years ago was a CCW body on a more up to date chassis, something which I was very pleased to find out as I remember going to the CCW shop in the Bridleway behind Watford Junction in the late 50's / early 60's. I was going to do a bit of added detail until I found out it was a CCW kit

 

 

This is another loco I bought 3/4 years ago, an etched brass GWR 57xx with a nice but basic chassis

 

 

The two main issues are putting some extra weight in the tanks and a very noisy gear train 

 

Adding a bit of lead to the tanks is made a bit harder owing to the boiler under belly, I am just going to have to be a bit patient in doing this.

 

As for the noise the previous owner added some tissue in the boiler, I have added an extra sheet which has made no difference. I have tried moving the gear wheel which has made a slight difference, but not much. There is little adjustment between the motor and its mount and when traveling in one direction its far nosier than going the other way. I will try and remove the motor and slightly elongate the mounting holes on the mount. Failing this I guess its a new set of gears. Its a real shame about the noise as the loco runs very well at low speed

 

I have no idea what the make of the kits is, the body is missing rear and front lamp irons and tool hooks and sometime I will repaint it GWR green.

 

The chassis has sprung buffers and pickups, but could do with some brake gear. All in all a very pleasing loco which was reasonably priced

 

Any suggestions about the gear messing issues would be much appreciated 

[Simond]

Diagnosis at a distance is challenging, however, I’d suggest looking at the following:

 

that it runs well in one direction and noisily in the other makes me think that the worm is rubbing on the motor front bearing (or something), and moving the worm a millimetre or so away from the motor might cure it.  If it doesn’t, and always assuming a plastic worm that you can get off the shaft,  put a couple of washers between the worm and the motor, and ensure there is just a little free play for the shaft in/out of the motor.

 

check the gear mesh.  You might need to file the slots in the motor mounting plate to get it sweet.  I’d put an oiled green Rizla cigarette paper between the gears whilst tightening the screws.  Make sure that the motor is not cocked over during this process.  Best if you can assemble the motor with the gears almost out of mesh, then put the Rizla in, then snug the gears into mesh, then tighten the screws, then take out the Rizla, and only then, run it!

 

just in case, take the motor off the chassis and check that it runs sweetly when not engaged with the gears.  Ditto, make sure the chassis runs nicely without the motor gear meshed.  These must be good for it to stand any chance when assembled!

 

HTH

HNY!

Simon

[hayfield]

15 hours ago, Simond said:

Diagnosis at a distance is challenging, however, I’d suggest looking at the following:

 

that it runs well in one direction and noisily in the other makes me think that the worm is rubbing on the motor front bearing (or something), and moving the worm a millimetre or so away from the motor might cure it.  If it doesn’t, and always assuming a plastic worm that you can get off the shaft,  put a couple of washers between the worm and the motor, and ensure there is just a little free play for the shaft in/out of the motor.

 

check the gear mesh.  You might need to file the slots in the motor mounting plate to get it sweet.  I’d put an oiled green Rizla cigarette paper between the gears whilst tightening the screws.  Make sure that the motor is not cocked over during this process.  Best if you can assemble the motor with the gears almost out of mesh, then put the Rizla in, then snug the gears into mesh, then tighten the screws, then take out the Rizla, and only then, run it!

 

just in case, take the motor off the chassis and check that it runs sweetly when not engaged with the gears.  Ditto, make sure the chassis runs nicely without the motor gear meshed.  These must be good for it to stand any chance when assembled!

 

HTH

HNY!

Simon

Simon

 

Thank you for the advice and happy net year

 

I have always found the meshing of gears one of the hardest jobs in railway modelling, in 4mm scale High Level gearboxes have been a godsend.

 

I remember the advice I received from the two chaps on the Southeastern Finecast stand at a show, was to build and test the motor, gears and mount and run in prior to fitting. Soon after I found High Level gearboxes (which are built that way) and they seemed to work faultlessly straight away. So I never got to try this method with a motor mount. Also it seems many now use smaller worms and plastic gears. Its a shame High Level do not make larger gearboxes for 7mm scale. But given many seem able to mesh these motor/gear/mount units its my application that is at fault

 

Perhaps in this case the builder suffered the same issues as I experience, the worm has been soldered in place, could it be that the hole in it was enlarged too much ?

 

Also all 3 axles have quite a bit of side play the two outer wheels seem to have 1mm of movement but the centre axel has at least 2mm of movement so the exact setting of the gears is impossible. I do have a couple of spare motors and gears perhaps I should try building these first and see how they run on their own ?

[Simond]

Morning John, Happy New Year to you too!

 

worm soldered to motor shaft…. That’s not the end of the world.  

 

#1 Turn one of the wheels one way and then the other whilst watching the worm.  It’ll move towards, and away, from the motor.  Does it touch the motor or anything else?  If not, don’t worry about that aspect.

 

#2  Remove the motor screws (doing it over a clean duster on a tray prevents the carpet monster being fed) and slip the motor out.  Place loco on track, hold the motor delicately in one hand and set your controller to minimum speed.  You’ll hopefully be able to see the worm turning slowly, you need to look for the outside diameter, and ignore the “thread” - you’re trying to see if it’s concentric,  if it’s wobbling, that’s an issue.  If the motor vibrates horribly when you turn up the voltage, that’s also an issue.  
 

Otherwise, you can assume motor and worm are ok.

 

Whilst the motor is out, does the chassis roll sweetly both ways, with no binding or snags?  Given that it looks like a Premier, or more likely, Springside chassis, both of which are from the “brick outhouse” school of engineering, I’d expect it to be perfect.
 

ok, elephant in the room, sideplay.  
 

you don’t need much, if any, sideplay on any of the axles on an 0 gauge finescale loco, unless the curve radius Is under 6’.  Less than a millimetre is perfectly acceptable on a non-driven axle, but 2mm on the driven one is never going to work well, as the worm and wheel will normally run-in together, and eventually work-harden, and this won’t happen if the mesh is inconsistent, and both gears will wear.  I generally use ready-made gearboxes but in any case, I ensure “almost zero” sideplay by shimming as required.  Really, the minimum clearance to rotate freely, and no more.

 

how to do this on an assembled loco?  Slaters’ wheels, get a really good 50 thou Allen key (not a metric one!) and hope the screws come out, I guess.  If they don’t, you have the choice of making “C” washers from brass or plasticard, and slipping them onto the axle between wheel and bearing, or between gear and bearing, which might work reasonably well at least for a while, or drilling the screws out.  You can buy replacement screws (and axles if you’re really unlucky) from Slaters.  Slaters also sell packs of etches of washers in three thicknesses, which are handy shims.

 

7mm ready-made gearboxes?  Speak to Bill at Premier Components, he does single stage and two stage, or Brian at ABC, who does two-stage only, I think.  Otherwise Ron Caplin, or MSC Models.

 

hope this helps you sort it out.  
 

does it really need more weight?

 

And your 14/48xx.  Don’t rely on a sprung pony truck…

 

 

Do let us know how you get on, goid luck

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Simond

[hayfield]

Simon

 

Thanks again for the tips. Regarding weight the one thing I like about 7mm scale whitemetal kit built locos is the sheer mass of them which to me replicates the real life locos. As a steam loco passes you can feel the ground move. Also the movement of a 7mm whitemetal loco seems to replicate this

 

I have three 14/48xx locos all differ,

The Springside has a spring rear set of trailing wheels on the centre axle

The CCW has a milled chassis (not Springside), the trailing wheels are un-sprung  but in oval holes, weight over drivers is sufficient for it not to sit back on the trailing wheels

The Slaters chassis is etched, both drivers are sprung and the trailing wheels have 2 springs

 

So quite a few differing examples of types of chassis construction, as you say the milled chassis are bomb proof

 

I think the first step is as you have suggested is the motor and gear setup, Firstly I will get out my spare motor and gears and give them a run. Then work backwards with the motor and gears, I don't mind buying a new set of gears if these have worn badly or even change the motor. I don't think I paid a great deal for this loco and whilst its a bit naïve against modern RTR and kits its still been made quite well

 

Has anyone made an etch for sale with lamp irons and tool brackets to save a bit of time scratch building 

[Simond]

The Springside 14/48 is a dogs breakfast, it’ll never run well, with rigid bearings for the drivers and a sprung trailing axle.  I compensated mine by creating a pair of rocking beams to which I soldered the main axle bearings, and a rigid third point, centred over the trailing axle.  ( there’s a drawing somewhere, I redid it recently, I’ll post if I can find it)

 

Obviously I needed a gearbox that didn’t depend on the chassis, can’t recall what I used.  Certainly fixed it, and it runs sweetly, or did til I blew the chip with a careless short.:(

[hayfield]

7 minutes ago, Simond said:

The Springside 14/48 is a dogs breakfast, it’ll never run well, with rigid bearings for the drivers and a sprung trailing axle.  I compensated mine by creating a pair of rocking beams to which I soldered the main axle bearings, and a rigid third point, centred over the trailing axle.  ( there’s a drawing somewhere, I redid it recently, I’ll post if I can find it)

 

Obviously I needed a gearbox that didn’t depend on the chassis, can’t recall what I used.  Certainly fixed it, and it runs sweetly, or did til I blew the chip with a careless short.:(

 

Simon

 

Again

 

Thank you for the advice and yes I would like to see the drawing. The Springside 14xx chassis needs taking apart to paint, so later in the year when I have time I will look into some form of springing/compensation, a bit of a lump to cut out the hornblocks.

 

 

This is my selection of 0 gauge motors, plus I have some Mashima 16 series and I see Roxey mouldings make a gearbox for them

 

Top left is a Mashima 1833, it has a single stage Roxey  Mouldings gearbox seems to run ok 

Middle left another 1833 with a Slaters 4 stage gearbox, with a little oil its very smooth 

Middle right a third 1833 and what seems to be a coreless motor with a 3mm shaft

Bottom right is a Cannon motor similar size to the Mashima 1833 plus I have an Anchoridge 1833 40/1 motor mount

 

Two of these motors are spoken for as I have a Slaters Flatiron waiting for the 1833 with the Slaters gearbox, another 1833 is for the Springside 44xx

I think I will have to speak with Dave Hamersley and buy a 2 stage gearbox

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/812/7g42-18-two-stage-401-gearbox-for-mashima-m1833-motor/

[hayfield]

A quick update, I removed the motor and opened up the holes slightly, at the same time I fitted axle washers to the centre drivers. Result is in one direction it runs sweetly but in the other direction it is very rough. I assume the meshing has been damaged, so a new gear box will be tried

[Hal Nail]

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

Has anyone made an etch for sale with lamp irons and tool brackets to save a bit of time scratch building 

https://www.crtkits.co.uk/product.php/395665/

 

PRC do lost wax ones as well. I got an etch off ebay but not sure they are listed at the moment.

[Simond]

Found it…

 

Frames in green, equalising beams in blue, bushes in brass colour.  

Obviously cut the beams as a pair, and do the frame mods with them fixed together too.

 

hth

Simon

[DLT]

How much forward and back movement is there in the motor shaft?  If it runs sweetly in one direction, is that with the shaft pushed in or pulled out?  Reducing the end-float in the motor shaft, so that it stays in it's "sweet" position would help.

Simon has already brought up sideplay in the driven axle, is the gearwheel moving sideways relative to the worm?  If so this will cause noisy/rough running  Reducing the sideplay to an absolute minimum so that the gearwheel stays in it's optimum position will be a big help.

Best of luck!

Dave.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, DLT said:

How much forward and back movement is there in the motor shaft?  If it runs sweetly in one direction, is that with the shaft pushed in or pulled out?  Reducing the end-float in the motor shaft, so that it stays in it's "sweet" position would help.

Simon has already brought up sideplay in the driven axle, is the gearwheel moving sideways relative to the worm?  If so this will cause noisy/rough running  Reducing the sideplay to an absolute minimum so that the gearwheel stays in it's optimum position will be a big help.

Best of luck!

Dave.

 

 

Dave

 

Thanks. I have done the side play, I will check the end float, thanks

[Simond]

11 hours ago, Simond said:

#1 Turn one of the wheels one way and then the other whilst watching the worm.  It’ll move towards, and away, from the motor.  Does it touch the motor or anything else?  If not, don’t worry about that aspect.

this is crucial, it’s why I put it first!!!

[hayfield]

Probably if not very close as there is about .8mm movement, but as the worm is soldered to the shaft I cannot either alter it or fit washers

 

As for the side play I fitted two .4mm washers each side but there is still movement

 

Either way I will need to strip down the chassis again and unsolder the motor then unsolder the worm. Given there is no grub screw for the worm I think at least a change of gears is the minimum. However the information that the worm should not touch the motor is something I think I do subconsciously but never check for. High Level design the gearboxes so the gear on the axle cannot move sideways, perhaps adding washers inside the frames to stop this is another thing I could try, but this may be far harder in 7mm gauge than 4mm

[bluestag]

On 01/01/2023 at 05:33, hayfield said:

 

 

Last year I bought two Springside kits, 48xx to rebuild the body and finish and a 45xx which has been part built. Springside have sold me the missing parts for the 48xx and the missing parts for the 45xx are on order.

 

I also found out that a 14xx I bought two or three years ago was a CCW body on a more up to date chassis, something which I was very pleased to find out as I remember going to the CCW shop in the Bridleway behind Watford Junction in the late 50's / early 60's. I was going to do a bit of added detail until I found out it was a CCW kit

 

 

This is another loco I bought 3/4 years ago, an etched brass GWR 57xx with a nice but basic chassis

 

 

The two main issues are ...... and a very noisy gear train

 

As for the noise the previous owner added some tissue in the boiler, I have added an extra sheet which has made no difference. I have tried moving the gear wheel which has made a slight difference, but not much. There is little adjustment between the motor and its mount and when traveling in one direction its far nosier than going the other way.

 

 

 

On 01/01/2023 at 05:33, hayfield said:

 

 

 

Any suggestions about the gear messing issues would be much appreciated 

I had a very noisy worm wheel affair on my first 7mm loco.   I replaced the steel worm with nylon and it is now nearly silent.   From Ultrascale.   A cheap solution.

 

Kevin

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, bluestag said:

 

 

 

I had a very noisy worm wheel affair on my first 7mm loco.   I replaced the steel worm with nylon and it is now nearly silent.   From Ultrascale.   A cheap solution.

 

Kevin

 

 

Kevin

 

Thank you for the tip, in 4mm scale I am quite used to using plastic worms, and these may also be an easier way of using the motor with a 3mm shaft. However if I can buy a decent set of cut gears it may be the first step in obtaining quieter running

 

I have been put off ordering gears firstly because I do not understand what I am ordering, plus prior to using High Level gearboxes I was wary of fitting worms without grub screws

 

Its a great pity I never measured the gear and worm accurately 

[Kris]

On 01/01/2023 at 13:33, hayfield said:

 

 

Last year I bought two Springside kits, 48xx to rebuild the body and finish and a 45xx which has been part built. Springside have sold me the missing parts for the 48xx and the missing parts for the 45xx are on order.

 

I also found out that a 14xx I bought two or three years ago was a CCW body on a more up to date chassis, something which I was very pleased to find out as I remember going to the CCW shop in the Bridleway behind Watford Junction in the late 50's / early 60's. I was going to do a bit of added detail until I found out it was a CCW kit

 

 

This is another loco I bought 3/4 years ago, an etched brass GWR 57xx with a nice but basic chassis

 

 

The two main issues are putting some extra weight in the tanks and a very noisy gear train 

 

Adding a bit of lead to the tanks is made a bit harder owing to the boiler under belly, I am just going to have to be a bit patient in doing this.

 

As for the noise the previous owner added some tissue in the boiler, I have added an extra sheet which has made no difference. I have tried moving the gear wheel which has made a slight difference, but not much. There is little adjustment between the motor and its mount and when traveling in one direction its far nosier than going the other way. I will try and remove the motor and slightly elongate the mounting holes on the mount. Failing this I guess its a new set of gears. Its a real shame about the noise as the loco runs very well at low speed

 

I have no idea what the make of the kits is, the body is missing rear and front lamp irons and tool hooks and sometime I will repaint it GWR green.

 

The chassis has sprung buffers and pickups, but could do with some brake gear. All in all a very pleasing loco which was reasonably priced

 

Any suggestions about the gear messing issues would be much appreciated 

That looks very similar to an O gauge 57xx I purchased several years back for an absolute steal (£25 - The joys of it being mislabelled ). I'm not sure if we ever worked out who had made it. Mine had an issue with the gears, it had worn away the main gear. I ended up having to remove and replace the wheals and put on a new gear to solve it. I don't have it now, I sold it on and received enough money to purchase a Dapol 57xx and have quite a bit left over.  

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, Kris said:

That looks very similar to an O gauge 57xx I purchased several years back for an absolute steal (£25 - The joys of it being mislabelled ). I'm not sure if we ever worked out who had made it. Mine had an issue with the gears, it had worn away the main gear. I ended up having to remove and replace the wheals and put on a new gear to solve it. I don't have it now, I sold it on and received enough money to purchase a Dapol 57xx and have quite a bit left over.  

 

 

Even if you had to buy a new set of wheels and gears it was still under a third of its cost.  Probably the most satisfying part is finding out the problem and repairing it.

 

Certainly with the Springside kit (48xx) I am rebuilding is to appreciate how it is designed to go together, especially as I had no instructions and never built one before. I see Jazz has just finished building a Springside 94xx, which differs as the tank and boiler/smokebox are constructed from etched brass. He stated its not for the novice builder, perhaps he means novice to soldering whitemetal kits.

 

I get my pleasure in building the item rather than the use.