BR WR 1962-70 MODULE IDEA

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Evening all, 

After a very short hiatus from the hobby I'm begining to rough out ideas for a future layout so I can begin collecting over the next few years whilst also saving for my first proper (non uni) house. 

 

The idea is to design a few modules that will have all of the important features and then the rest of whatever space I can get when I eventually join the property ladder will be filled with simple mainline and branchline track so I can watch trains whizz by. 

 

As I'm going to spend the next few years collecting locos whilst I have no space for a layout I thought a TMD (yawn I know) may be a good idea to be able to show off some of my purchases when I finally get space. 

 

I've no clue how the western region would have designed a small local stabling / refueling point but here is my rough idea . I've also crammed on a junction into a small single track branch as I know I will want one somewhere on the layout and this format saves space. 

 

Any advice accepted. Aiming for vaguely realistic whilst still being able to use rule one and display my locos whilst trains run past in the for ground. Going for western region in very late br green possibly a few post tops formations too. 

 

- David

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Whilst I'm at it, here's a stirage yard with all of the track I currently own from previous layouts. 

 

Non scenic so obviously no need at all to be prototypical. But does the flow make sense. 

 

Idea is to store mainline trains in loops. Spare locos off scene in the lower area. And Overflow storage at the back. 

 

The branchline will run dmus / short trains from the runaround loop along the mainline, then down the inclined branch to a second smaller set of off scene sidings. Before returning back up the incline and repeating. 

 

Some odd choices made to make use of all the point work I own currently and save cash. Crossovers are reversed from prototype to allow better loco flow with fewer movements between mainline and  various sidings. 

 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

I replied but it never appeared....strange

 

Anyway, storage yard looks good if you accept/want the big variation in siding length.

 

For the TMD, I cant imagine that two slips would be used for that crossing - saves space but surely it would be done with a turnout and a cross-over connecting the branch line to the main lines. The crossover would be trailing for the main lines. Locos would then reverse back into the TMD. The TMD can also be on a loop I would think. Someone more expert than I will provide you with a suitable prototype I would imagine

[Chris M]

You could of course have quite a nice layout in 12 by 3 if you used N gauge

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I replied but it never appeared....strange

 

Anyway, storage yard looks good if you accept/want the big variation in siding length.

 

For the TMD, I cant imagine that two slips would be used for that crossing - saves space but surely it would be done with a turnout and a cross-over connecting the branch line to the main lines. The crossover would be trailing for the main lines. Locos would then reverse back into the TMD. The TMD can also be on a loop I would think. Someone more expert than I will provide you with a suitable prototype I would imagine

The chances of finding a double slip in a WR running line, let alone 2 in adjacent running lines, at other than a major station would have been in the 'extremely unlikely' category by the mid 1960s.  By then even single slips were being ripped out of running lines as fast as the Region could manage it. 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

How does this look? 

 

3 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Locos would then reverse back into the TMD

Would fuel supply trains also just stop on the main and shunt back in? 

 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

extremely unlikely

Both slips removed. I did think it was a long shot but didn't realise how unrealistic. 

[RobinofLoxley]

54 minutes ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

How does this look? 

 

Would fuel supply trains also just stop on the main and shunt back in? 

 

Both slips removed. I did think it was a long shot but didn't realise how unrealistic. 

Basically thats what would happen. Facing points are unusual outside of station approaches and junctions, and modellers copy this protocol. A fuel supply train can also arrive on the red line, shunt back onto the yellow, then into the yard. As you have it the loco is then trapped, but if you had a stock siding on the rhs it could simply be released by reversing the tanks back into it. You wouldnt be able to change the direction unless there was a run-around. If you think about it, whichever direction the tanks came from, they will go back the same way empty, so the loco needs to get round them, or a second loco can pick them up from the other end which is possible but less likely.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

9 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

a second loco can pick them up from the other end

I had imagined using a shunter to free the loco by removing the tanks from the inbound track and leaving them in the outbound. allowing a little reshuffle to take place. its how i operated a steel works on a previous layout and was always a little fun puzzle to solve, freeing the mainline loco and swapping it out with the shunter afterwards.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

How does this look? 

 

Would fuel supply trains also just stop on the main and shunt back in? 

 

Both slips removed. I did think it was a long shot but didn't realise how unrealistic. 

Very much better for the period you are modelling.  You can quite justifiably signal with either semaphore or colour light signals although the latter would be unusual before the mid 1960s.

 

3 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

I had imagined using a shunter to free the loco by removing the tanks from the inbound track and leaving them in the outbound. allowing a little reshuffle to take place. its how i operated a steel works on a previous layout and was always a little fun puzzle to solve, freeing the mainline loco and swapping it out with the shunter afterwards.

 

 

Basically a passing train on the yellow line - would set back into the depot to detach or attach wagons including fuel tanks and stores etc.  it's always simpler to work wagons in and out of a location via trailing siding which ensures that the loco remains on the 'open' end.  There wouldn't be a depot pilot loco (shunter) for a place that small - they'd simply use whatever locos were coming on or off depot to shunt things like that.  I managed a far larger depot than that at one time as well as one of about that size and neither had a dieesel shunter for use as a depot pilot although the tripping in and out of things like fuel tanks might sometimes be down by diesel shunter especially at the smaller depot which was right next to a marshalling yard.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Very much better for the period you are modelling.  You can quite justifiably signal with either semaphore or colour light signals

perfect thank you. 

 

As im now thinking of running some corprate blue as well as green diesels and some steam i think ill opt for colour light signals. I may also go rouge and buy some modern stock to run every now and then. Could you give me a hand with a signal diagram please. Im guessing normal red green aspects throughout the mainline ( i will base these on blocks when i implement dcc automation) and then white/red shunt signals for the tmd ? 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

perfect thank you. 

 

As im now thinking of running some corprate blue as well as green diesels and some steam i think ill opt for colour light signals. I may also go rouge and buy some modern stock to run every now and then. Could you give me a hand with a signal diagram please. Im guessing normal red green aspects throughout the mainline ( i will base these on blocks when i implement dcc automation) and then white/red shunt signals for the tmd ? 

Because of the compressed distances on the model compared with the real world - even to WR signalling standards of that time - you can get away with very few running signals (the ones on posts showing different coloured lights.  You could also if you wish use 2 aspect (red/green) signals instead of three aspect (red/yellow/green) and sy till be right.

 

So for running signals you only need two.  One applying to trains coming from the left on the yellow line set no closer to the crossovers that roughly opposite where your branch changes from red to green colouring and preferably further back.  In fact you could even assume it's 'off stage' to the left in order to give an over lap clear of the junction so then you only need one signal! 

 

You need one for the red line for trains coming from the right and using the normal WR practice of that time it wouldn't be too far from the jnction but it would have to be set back clear of the crossover to the yellow line.  This signal would have a position 1 (top left) junction indicator ('feather') which illuminates when teh route is set towards the branch and the signal is showing a proceed aspect - either g yellow or green).  you can use either a 2 aspect or 3 aspect signal as i explained above.  It would look like this signal g from Traintronics with a few minor detail differences -

 

 

Using normal WR practice from that era the connection into the depot would most likely be worked by a single lever ground frame with no signals at all.  The ground frame would work the points by traditional point rodding.

 

So there you are - build a graond frame that looks right for WR and you only need to buy and install one signal.  if it was semaphore t you'd need at leastthree running signals, probably fur, plus a signal box so we've just saved you quite a bit of money 😇

[RobinofLoxley]

Nothing for something arriving on the branch line? Given the same comment about off-scene location would apply.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

So there you are - build a graond frame that looks right for WR and you only need to buy and install one signal

 Thanks for all of your help. The building of any new layouts will most likely be in atleast 2 years with my current job and lack of my own space. But now I have a track plan I can proceed with collecting some more track and poi t motors and expanding my rolling stock fleet

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Nothing for something arriving on the branch line? Given the same comment about off-scene location would apply.

Off scene and probably in the next room/outside the layout shed because in scale terms it could be getting on for 12 feet away 😇

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Morning all, 

 

Had in idea about putting a blt at the end of the branchline, at the top of an incline and over top of a storage yard allowing more functionality in a smaller room. 

 

This plan is based on a layout I designed a year or two ago with help on here called cherrybrook. I liked the way that layout flowed but never got much play time in before it was dismantled. 

 

Same as always. Western region 1960-70. 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

Given its a branchline, and especially of the period, a 2+goods platform station is a bit large but there might be a prototype for it. Someone will know. The plan is nice but more 1950's.

 

Beware of the gradient requirement to get up the incline, as you have restricted space. Although people can and do run quite steep gradients its stock dependent. You also have to allow for the transitions from flat to gradient, which would be somewhere from 30-50cm each.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Given its a branchline, and especially of the period, a 2+goods platform station is a bit large but there might be a prototype for it. Someone will know. The plan is nice but more 1950's.

 

Beware of the gradient requirement to get up the incline, as you have restricted space. Although people can and do run quite steep gradients its stock dependent. You also have to allow for the transitions from flat to gradient, which would be somewhere from 30-50cm each.

I might have a look at one derelict platform or an area where one platform has been removed. Thanks for the advice

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Having another play around with plans and I've decided some modernisation has been occurring at the tmd. Being late 60s I wanted most of the mainline to be wooden sleepers with colour light signals. 

 

I've added a section of concrete sleepers to the mainline, perhaps the wood was too far gone to save? Then also I'm thinking some Concrete sleeper track going into the new diesel shed and fueling area. Perhaps even using some Peco concrete points too. The old wills steam shed I have will sit hidden at the end of an overgrown siding. And may serve the occasional pannier that banks the incline. 

 

Any thoughts? 

 

[DavidB-AU]

The BLT works but I'd reverse the run around and remove the second platform. I agree it looks more 1950s, especially as most livestock traffic was cut around 1962. The remains of the cattle dock could be opposite the platform.

 

There needs to be a reason to justify keeping the line open after Beeching. An oil depot could be one reason. Something else would be needed to justify keeping the goods shed open, or at least a goods platform where the shed used to be. Something like scrap metal or cement.

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

having another look at the blt , roughed out some buildings including a small ex gwr signal box on the platform , a small goods shed, station building and possibly a station masters cottage up on the embankment to the left.

 

im assuming all i need is one home/starter signal on the end of the platform and maybe some control for shunting the yard . any suggestions ?

 

[The Stationmaster]

Jiust a couple of ground franes and no signals would be quite likely by then - especially for the later end of your timeframe .

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Jiust a couple of ground franes and no signals would be quite likely by then - especially for the later end of your timeframe .

Could I get away with keeping the home signal? Wanted an excuse to use a nice one for a while. Would the signal box be derelict? 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Havent looked at these plans for a while but decided to start one of the modules ( double track viaduct ) as a diorama . Im just going over the most recent version of the tmd plans and im trying to work on the signalling.

 

will be aiming to use colour light signals from absolute aspects which will be computer controlled using merg boards. thinking 3 aspect stops for the mainline blocks but unsure about the tmd entrance. Thinking a 3 aspect on the aproach with a shunt head to allow movement past the signal to then set back into the tmd. also some sort of position light or feather for the branch ? only thinking 3 aspect beacuse i will use the signals to warn me of dangers in the storage loops. i.e. amber signal before going off scene reminds me im heading into a line with one occupied and one empty storage section.

 

aiming early 70s wr practice.

 

all help welcome 

 

here are some diagrams. coloured stars refer to whcih line and rough location. notes are guesses at signals.

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

also interested in using any necessary ground signals in tmd or for shunt limits on the mainlines

[5BarVT]

What you have shown is not far off.  The yellow star signal would have a Position 1 junction indicator for the branch but wouldn’t need a shunt signal. (WR drivers knew where they were going so didn’t need a shunt signal to tell them to stop beyond the points to come back in, other regions (LMR, ScR might have provided such a shunt).). I would try to move a bit further from the points but not too close to the curve.

Going off scene Red and yellow star signal are fine.

You will need a shunt signal on the toes of the TMD points to get back in.  (70s would have it on the point ties, these days it might be back beyond the branch points.)

The blue star TMD exit would probably be a shunt signal with 2 stencil indicators for 70s.  (WR stencils were quite large and displayed an orange dotted 1 or 2 letter indication.). Where it would go, I’m getting mixed up with current theory and I don’t know if that would apply back then.

Today, it would be at least a loco length clear of the trap point by the running line with a STOP board alongside facing the opposite direction.  That way, the signaller can always signal a loco in clear of the running line.  Back then, the shunt signal might be down by the trap points and require the signalman to phone the depot for permission to signal a loco in.

Paul.