BR WR 1962-70 MODULE IDEA

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

looking at the branchline here is the current track plan.

 

I'm thinking the goods yard and shed will be very grassy and overgrown but will be used for stabling engineering / breakdown trains as well as some left over local goods that I have seen mentioned on other threads on here. My Idea being there are some industries left that use the old goods shed to load up short workings maybe once a week.

 

As for the station it too will be run down but will see some longer parcels traffic accompanied by short dmu passenger services. the last year of the layout will probably be around 1968-70 so im thinking this branch is just about surviving due to the cider farm and steelworks, but will probably be closed in a year or two.

 

The signal box will be boarded up and im thinking of providing a ground frame on the platform as well as hand throws in the goods yard. 

 

As for actual control of the layout im thinking of building my own interlocking lever frame ( just for the BLT as it is relatively simple and compact... the rest of the layout will have a mix of pc control and modern led and switch control panels)

 

To that end I've started drawing a lever diagram. any glaring errors so far ?  I'm imagining the home and distant are the other side of the tunnel, also im not sure but would i need to draw on and add a lever for a facing point lock on no.1.    I may end up adding levers for the missing home and distant and just having them feedback into my pc control system. Any help with diagram sketches appreciated.

[The Johnster]

Rule 1 but credible, how about a distribution depot for a large mail-order firm.  For Cwmdimbath I've invented 'Districts & Overseas', sort of inspired by 'Home & Colonial', and while the Liverpool and Bradford areas were the main centres of this industry, at it's zenith during your stated period, there is no reason not to install one in a disused factory at Cherrybrook.  You are welcome to use D&O as a basis for this and to use the name.  The river, with boats on it, I can't help thinking of as the Severn because of your location and the Coalbrookdale-based station building, but it could be a tidal estuary with a fishing fleet, another industry doing well in those days.  This would introduce the possibility of a fish-processing shed and a cold storage facility, rail-served of couse!

 

Or there could be a previously constructed  power station, where the Build was with pink cooling towers (I rather liked those cooling towers)...

 

I apologise, Sunday avos get me like that sometimes.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Rule 1 but credible, how about a distribution depot for a large mail-order firm. 

 

Current thinking is that any actual industry is off scene and products are brought by cart or lorry to the old goods shed, where they are stored in the yard, before being loaded in the three goods sidings. Therefore i can imply different industries by swapping rolling stock and road vehicles.

 

 

some more work on the signal box diagram. can anyone help with interlocking rules ? @5BarVT@The Stationmaster

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Just noticed I need to swap up and down labels

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

looking at the branchline here is the current track plan.

 

I'm thinking the goods yard and shed will be very grassy and overgrown but will be used for stabling engineering / breakdown trains as well as some left over local goods that I have seen mentioned on other threads on here. My Idea being there are some industries left that use the old goods shed to load up short workings maybe once a week.

 

As for the station it too will be run down but will see some longer parcels traffic accompanied by short dmu passenger services. the last year of the layout will probably be around 1968-70 so im thinking this branch is just about surviving due to the cider farm and steelworks, but will probably be closed in a year or two.

 

The signal box will be boarded up and im thinking of providing a ground frame on the platform as well as hand throws in the goods yard. 

 

As for actual control of the layout im thinking of building my own interlocking lever frame ( just for the BLT as it is relatively simple and compact... the rest of the layout will have a mix of pc control and modern led and switch control panels)

 

To that end I've started drawing a lever diagram. any glaring errors so far ?  I'm imagining the home and distant are the other side of the tunnel, also im not sure but would i need to draw on and add a lever for a facing point lock on no.1.    I may end up adding levers for the missing home and distant and just having them feedback into my pc control system. Any help with diagram sketches appreciated.

 

Comments on the signalling if I may, subject to correction by The Stationmaster who knows more than I do about this stuff...

 

If the box is closed and boarded up, you can't have any main signals at all unless they are MAS worked from a panel box.  The branch has to be worked 'one engine in steam', probable anyway for a line at the end of it's life and 'hanging on'.  You will need fpls for no.1 and no.6 where they come off the running line, as these will be passed over by passenger trains in the facing direction (probably only the trailing bogie of departing trains at no.6, but it still needs the fpl).  The starter, no.2, is not needed, and if it hasn't been recovered yet can be modelled as just the post with the board lying in the undergrowth next to it or with an 'X' indicating that it is not in use fixed to the board.

 

The sidings will need to be worked by a ground frame released from the box at the junction; this releases a key from the mechanism, which physically unlocks the frame and cannot be removed from it until all the points and signals are returned to their default positions at the end of the shunting operations, and is then returned to the mechanism.  It can, if you like, be attached to the wooden single line staff that authorises occupation of the branch.  There is no need for operation from the ground frame (or your lever frame representing it) as these are hand-operated with levers.  Signalling, such as it is, is by handsignal or handlamp at night/during fog or falling snow from the guard or travelling shunter on the ground.

 

If traffic is heavy enough to require more than 'one engine in steam' on the branch, then you must re-open the box and full signalling is needed.  The distant is fixed anyway so is irrelevant, but will certainly by beyond the tunnel.  Given the shunting requirments, I can't imagine a home beyond the tunnel, it needs to be between the bridge and no.1 points, and needs to be a 'splitter' with the main board reading to the platform and the other board reading to the loop & sidings. The exit from the loop needs a starter as well in this case.  There can by all means be an outer home beyond the tunnel, but it is very unlikely, an expense only provided if there is a booked move that requires to stand out on the running line and be protected from traffic from the junction direction, an unlikely scenario.

 

For one engine in steam operation you will need a four-lever ground frame, a lever each  to jointly operate nos. 1 and 6 points and one each for the fpls.  You pull the fpl lever first to unlock the point operating lever, then pull the point lever, then put the fpl lever back to lock the turnout for the movement to take place, even if it is not a passenger train that is involved. 

 

Just my opinion, worth something like what you paid for it, but I would have the end-loading dock on the end of the loop road, and lose one of the sidings each side of the goods shed road, allowing the other one to be the old mileage road, still in use for contract loading/unloading of wagons and needing access for road vehicles to back on to them from the side.  My suggested fish-gutting shed and cold store could be served by the headshunt, not needed as a headshunt for 'one in steam' working.  Don't make the rookie landlubber mistake of putting boats with masts or high superstructure in the pool behind the bridge where they will be trapped, small boats or with collapsible masts only here, and the default would be to have them collapsed, though one erected with somebody working on it would be a nice little cameo!

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

17 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

Comments on the signalling if I may, subject to correction by The Stationmaster who knows more than I do about this stuff...

 

Thank you very much for the help, alot to take on board. 

starting to think I might end up going for full signalling with the box remaining open. would this be at all feasable for 1965-70? 

 

This is only beacuse I like the idea of using a few semaphore signals on the branch and having colour light signals on the rest of the layout.  Also I was thinking that DMUS and parcel services could come and go run by the computer whilst an operator shunts goods in the yard / headshunt with a shunter.

 

heres a terrible stab at some full signalling. looking at using dapols offerings. would it make sense to have a junction signal netween the tracks leaving the station, with the left board signalling the exit from the loop/ sidings and the right being the platform starter. also how would i arrange shunt signals to allow shunting in and out of the headshunt and running round of loco hauled services 

 

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Could i get away with semaphore signals along with GPL or would standard GWR disks be needed. If so does anyone know of a good kit thats easy to operate by servo.

[The Johnster]

A semaphore signalled branch is not impossible at your period; Redditch for example, which still had loco-hauled trains in your period.  You would need separate starters for the loop and the home, and unless the site demands a  bracket with both signals on it these will be individual posts, with the loop signal lower than the platform road one.  The Dapol splitting home signal in your picture is not suitable, as it needs to indicate that it is a starter with boards reading from not to seperate roads, and it does this by having both dolls on the platform bracketed either side of the main post. 

 

I am unaware of any location that used ground position lights with semaphore signals, you need ground disc signals.  Ratio do these as a plastic kit, and IIRC Springside do cast ready-painted ones, but neither of these work, they are purely cosmetic, but it should be possible to arrange operating rods to convert the plastic kit Ratio discs to operating status.  Fitting a working light would be beyond me, but I'm sure that could be done as well!  I live in hopes that Dapol will put their 7mm disc signals through the 4mm shrink ray as they have done with the diagram N autotrailer...  You'll need one at the base of each main signal, two mounted one above the other at the base of the splitting home, read top to bottom left to right so that the top disc reads to the platform road and the bottom one to the loop.  The one at the base of the loop starter will have a yellow stripe, not red, which indicates that it can be passed at danger in the direction to which it does not read, i.e., the headshunt.  There will also be one on each side of the loco release crossover and one to control the exit onto the loop, which is a permissive block running line, from the loop spur that I have suggested is a good place for the end-loading dock.

 

Ground disc and other shunting subsidiary signals are different to the main signals in that they do not guarantee that the section to the next signal is clear, and drivers running under their clearance must exercise caution, limit speed to 15mph, and be prepared to stop within the distance that they can see the line is clear ahead.  They are thus capable of being used to call a train or light engine forward into a signal section that is occupied by another train or vehicles. 

 

I'd suggest a visit to the SVR on a busy day when all the signalling is working and forget about the trains, just watch the signalling action and you will soon pick up the basics.  A shunt at Highley or Arley would be very educational if you can catch one!

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

 

Current thinking is that any actual industry is off scene and products are brought by cart or lorry to the old goods shed, where they are stored in the yard, before being loaded in the three goods sidings. Therefore i can imply different industries by swapping rolling stock and road vehicles.

 

 

some more work on the signal box diagram. can anyone help with interlocking rules ? @5BarVT@The Stationmaster

 

 

For the era ypu are portraying all there would be, at the most, are a couple of 2 lever ground frames to work the two crossovers - each of them released by the train staff used for one train working.  In fact more than likely that the release crossover would be hand points with no need for a ground frame.  No signals at all although a fixed distant would probably have survived - but itwould be off scene.  And somewhere a small cabinet of some sort for a telephone to the signal box at the other end of the line (or the 'phone might be in a staff cabin).

 

Signal box most likely to have been demolished - the Western rarely left them standing unless they were retained as a staff cabin but that was not all that common.  Station building might still be there.  Goods shed most likely also demolished although it might be rented out and the siding clipped out of use - there'd be no traffic reason to keep it as the yard is only dealing with full loads and they'd be transferred direct from rail to road vehicle

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

option one is definately looking like no signals at all and just ground frames, however im still toying with the idea of full signalling, even if that means i restrict what i run on the branch to a slightly earlier era compared to the rest of the layout. ( The branch will be in effect a stand alone scene anyway that happens to be accessed from the main layout). 

 

if i were to leave the box open and implement full wr signalling how close would this be ? 

 

actual signal design is just rough and will be corrected before building

Edited October 16, 2023 by Horsehay Railway Modeller

[The Johnster]

I think that, if you are going to be fully signalled, individual posts are more likely for the starters; there is no space or sighting reason to have them bracketed.  The discs associated with them would be at the foot of eash post and not stacked

[The Stationmaster]

A would wither be a bracket wit a 3ft arm to read to the loop/yard or a straight post stop signals with a single ground disc to read to either the loop or the yard.  A double disc for that would be unlikely.

B. Sould be astraight post stop signal at the end of the platfprm on the playform sifde of the line.

 

No signals at all at C and E - providing one at C sometmes happened (e.g. Princetown) but it was unusual).

You also need a signal to read out of the loop/sidings - possibly a ground disc between teh two and applying to either (selected by the double slip or just a single one not selected or - in earluirr times - a single goods/siding arm applying to both.

 

The selction fc depends on whether or not one end of the single slip was worked by a hand lever instead of being connected to the signal box.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

another stab. 

• Junction braket home at A allowing a move into platform or goods/ loop. disk below to allow calling on of a loco 
• Starter on platform at B . Disk below allowing shunting moves (unsure if disk needed)
• starter for goods or loop at C (applies to either / selected by double slip?). Disk at base to allow shunt moves ( yellow to allow headshunt moves without signalling ?) 
• Disk at D to allow a loco to run around.

signalling is definately a week spot for me so i appologise for my ignorance. 

will move on to which points are hand operated and how the box is interlocked once we're set on which signals go where. i am thinking of building an interlocking frame just for interest and to be different from the main pc controlled layout.

 

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Neither of the discs at A & B are necessary but you need a 3ft arm to read to the loop/yard on the splitting signal A.    On C you only need the yellow arm disc - no need for the semaphore as it does almost exactly the same as the disc.

[The Johnster]

Yellow disc only loop/sidings to branch would assume an advance starter and an outer home (not that they have to be modelled, they can be 'beyond the tunnel'), wouldn't it, Mike?  Otherwise the next fixed signal is the junction home and you are running the whole branch on the clearance of a shunting disc signal.  I think his semaphore starter C is still required, with the yellow disc at it's foot.

 

There was a similar situation at the Court Sart end of Briton Ferry yard which I remarked on at the time because it was unusual, but told it was ok with MAS.  When the Port Talbot MAS extended to Swansea in 1974, there was gpl reading from Briton Ferry outlet to the down SWML main, permitting movement to the next fixed signal, which was nearly a mile away opposite the Metal Box factory.  Seemed a long way to go on what was essentially a permissive move from a shunting subsidiary signal.  I also highlighted what I thought was an anomaly at Swansea H.S., where the down main signal controlling entrance to the station showed a green aspect to proceed into the platform.  The next 'signal' was of course the red light on the buffers at the end of the platform, so you had a situation where you went straight from a green 'clear MAS signal section' aspect directly to a red signal.  This was splitting hairs and depended on whether it was correct to regard the red light on the buffer stop as a main signal.  I contended that it's purpose was intended to be exactly that and the previous aspect should have been a yellow, as the next 'signal' is red, or a calling on signal.  I think we've discussed this before; it just felt wrong to me...

 

On a running line terminating at buffers, I would regard the red paint and red lamp on the buffers as equivalent to a fixed signal not to be passed at danger, but it's a grey area.  And IMHO grey areas tend towards being accident-prone, though there has never been an issue at Swansea H.S.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

I think I can see the yard operating with a starter and the yellow shunt. Is there a reason the other signals don't require call ons? Can they still be passed at danger? 

[The Stationmaster]

On 19/10/2023 at 03:03, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

I think I can see the yard operating with a starter and the yellow shunt. Is there a reason the other signals don't require call ons? Can they still be passed at danger? 

No need for both,  For the period you are modelling there would almpst inevitably be a yellow arm disc and the semaphore would have gone by then.

 

Calling On signals weren't necessarily needed as all you'll be doing which might need on is running round an engine to the platform line.  it would have been a substantial locking alteration or lever frame renewal to provide one where none had existed in earlier years - there would never have been one originally at a small terminus like this.

 

There is no need whatsoever for an Advance Stating Signal where a yellow arm disc reads to a running line as its meaning for that movement is no different from the meaning of a red arm disc.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

okay current attempt is as follows.

 

 

 

 

unsure if lever 12 is needed or if the disk would also be on lever 11.

 

Also not sure on interlocking rules. am going to attempt servo interlocking the frame so levers can be locked on and off by either other levers or computer control signals.

 

 

[SZ]

1 hour ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by SZ
Ignore

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

I will also have block detection available on all of the main branch track into the platform (not the loop or goods sidings) 

 

Could this aid interlocking

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

okay current attempt is as follows.

 

 

 

 

unsure if lever 12 is needed or if the disk would also be on lever 11.

 

Also not sure on interlocking rules. am going to attempt servo interlocking the frame so levers can be locked on and off by either other levers or computer control signals.

 

 

That's now pretty good.  But as you've removed the double slip the yellow disc 6 should now be atthe toe of crossover 4 at the end wghere irt leaves the yard.  7, 8, and 9 would be worked by hand levers and not by the signalbox but there's nothing to stop you in the model world from putting those hand levers' in teh ;ever frame if that is what suits you.

 

!2 is perfectly ok and  by the date you have in mind a (oitating)_ point indiv cator would be pretty rare so 12 is ok as you've arranged but FPL 10 might ot might not be an FPL.  I think we can reasonably say the release crossover has been renewed and the FPL and independent disc were provided at that time.

 

The interlocking is going to be pretty straightforward with nothing fancy as it is all plain locks and releases with no conditional stuff.  If you work to the basic princples you should be able to work out most of it for yourself -

1. Points and signals are interlocked with each other to ensure that signals  require points to be in the correct position before their lever is released and once that lever is reversed it backlocks any levers which released it.

2. Conflicting signals interlock each other (but to save lever movements when shunting 2 and 6 might not lock each other.

 

Note that 11 releases 12

 

BTW your levers are numbered the wrong way round - No. 5 should be No.1 and No/1 should be the highest lever nummber in teh frame as it is at that end of the frame.

This shows you how to set out a locking table - don't worry that;s ir's a lot bigger than your needs but it shows the Western column headings and the way a table is laid out

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwa/S142-3.pdf

 

The block detection ideally should affect the interlocking  in this sort of situation with one exception - the facing poinyt lock levers should be locked when teh track over the points is occupied by a train.  That it turn will lock the points and prevent them moving under a train.  i cidentally the FPL levers bolt the points when the lever is standin g reverse andd unv bolt the points when the lever is standing normal in the frame

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

48 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

That's now pretty good.  But as you've removed the double slip 

Thank you very much for your help. Appologies if my signal diagram is misleading, but the double slip remains in place.

 

50 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

BTW your levers are numbered the wrong way round - No. 5 should be No.1

This is very much a quirk of the fact that the layour is operated from the front side whereas, the box itself faces outwards. Does the diagram make sense if the box were to be facing the other way as the operator will be.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Attempt at adding some detection on points and in platform road. Also renumbered to have goods points hand operated. will try to get around reverse numbering by moving signal box to match operators view of the layout so levers can be labelled left to right as the operator will see. 

 

 

Interlocking is roughly hashed out after reading various articles and advice on here. will all be via a servo mechanism im currently designing to lock a scale four frame. 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Attempt at adding some detection on points and in platform road. Also renumbered to have goods points hand operated. will try to get around reverse numbering by moving signal box to match operators view of the layout so levers can be labelled left to right as the operator will see. 

 

 

Interlocking is roughly hashed out after reading various articles and advice on here. will all be via a servo mechanism im currently designing to lock a scale four frame. 

 

 

That's a good start and the signal box lever numbers now make sense although the signal box would be more likely placed where you originally had it so perhaps need for a compromise there between strict numbering accuracy and appearance of the layout and let appearance win (with your explanation of why the numbering is that way round).

 

Now to the locking - and it's mainly removing things rather than anything else.  If there's no comment then ok as per your table.

Lever 1 -  no need to be released by 7 (it's a trailing point0 and no need for any track circuit controls in the real world.  It locks 3, 5, & 8

Lever 3 - Release by 7 is debatable but ok  to keep it, no need for release by 4 as that's on a trailing point.  It locks 1,5, & 8

Lever 4 - No need to release 3

Lever 6 - Agree released by 5 (so it therefore can't lock 5 both ways and it has no need to do that any way).

Lever 7 - Also releases 3 - see comment at 3.

Lever 9 - Released by 8 so can't lock it both ways (see comment at lever 6)

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That's a good start.....

 

Thanks once again for your advice.

 

The track plan remains the same but ive altered the interlocking rules as per your advice. Except for :

• Ive left track circuit controls on lever 1 due to the way I picture it interacting with the PC control. The PC wont let a train enter the platform (unless manually controlled ) if any of the route is occupied so my signal and thus the lever might as well  be locked by the occupied platform block.
• Ive added a track circuit to lever 3 to prevent a train being released from the platform if there is a train in the block just off scene. I am planning on using some sort of arduino and 3d printed block instrument to show when the hidden incline is occupied - I hope to have the starter locked if it is not possible to send the train down the branch to the main layout. - more on this in my layout thread in the future.

 

unsure on exact lever naming convention so probably labelled incorrectly.