BR WR 1962-70 MODULE IDEA

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

4 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

What you have shown is not far off.  The yellow star signal would have a Position 1 junction indicator for the branch but wouldn’t need a shunt signal. (WR drivers knew where they were going so didn’t need a shunt signal to tell them to stop beyond the points to come back in, other regions (LMR, ScR might have provided such a shunt).). I would try to move a bit further from the points but not too close to the curve.

Going off scene Red and yellow star signal are fine.

You will need a shunt signal on the toes of the TMD points to get back in.  (70s would have it on the point ties, these days it might be back beyond the branch points.)

The blue star TMD exit would probably be a shunt signal with 2 stencil indicators for 70s.  (WR stencils were quite large and displayed an orange dotted 1 or 2 letter indication.). Where it would go, I’m getting mixed up with current theory and I don’t know if that would apply back then.

Today, it would be at least a loco length clear of the trap point by the running line with a STOP board alongside facing the opposite direction.  That way, the signaller can always signal a loco in clear of the running line.  Back then, the shunt signal might be down by the trap points and require the signalman to phone the depot for permission to signal a loco in.

Paul.

This is exactly what I was after thank you! Really usefull. I might provide the shunt signal just to add interest and cover me for anyone unaware of wr practices over on YouTube. 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

The blue star TMD exit would probably be a shunt signal with 2 stencil indicators for 70s.  (WR stencils were quite large and displayed an orange dotted 1 or 2 letter indication.)

I'm not sure where these images were taken but is this similar to what you mean? 

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

@5BarVT this is roughly what i understand from your advice above. 

 

sig heads next to coloured circles positioned on the equiv colour star.

 

would i also need ground sigs to signal the crossover (shown by purple triangles)

 

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

could this be another option for the blue sig to leave the tmd. with the route indications being something along the lines of UP, DN, CB      (up , down, cherrybrook branch)

 

 

i promise ill stop bombarding questions soon.

[5BarVT]

17 minutes ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

could this be another option for the blue sig to leave the tmd. with the route indications being something along the lines of UP, DN, CB      (up , down, cherrybrook branch)

That’s a bit modern - probably what would be done this century but not last.

 

1 hour ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

I'm not sure where these images were taken but is this similar to what you mean? 

 

 

 

 

That’s the sort of idea although that’s not a U.K. photo.  I’m guessing Netherlands, but might be wrong!

Paul.

[5BarVT]

56 minutes ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

@5BarVT this is roughly what i understand from your advice above. 

 

sig heads next to coloured circles positioned on the equiv colour star.

 

would i also need ground sigs to signal the crossover (shown by purple triangles)

 

 

Not far off.  You’ve found the one I forgot - the lower purple and that’s the correct signal.  The upper purple wouldn’t be needed, the yellow star above it would suffice.

I’ve done a bit more digging and found Llandore which was new in 1973. It didn’t bother with Route indications on the shunt signal - the driver went slowly until he knew where he was going!

The depot exit signal here is a post mounted one to give better visibility, but you could use a ground mounted as on the emergency exit hidden by the post to the left.  You can see that the exit signal is right down by the trap points in this case.

 

This signal is on the platform at Cheltenham and it has the form of your junction signal.  It also has two stencil indicators of the WR type.  You wouldn’t need them as back in the 70s it would be just shunt signal towards the main line and shunt + pos 1 towards the branch.

Paul.

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

4 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

It didn’t bother with Route indications on the shunt signal - the driver went slowly until he knew where he was going!

sounds like a logical option to me !

 

in case i do want route indication. this is the best comercial option i can find for the time being. the layout is a while off so i might find somethong else by then.

 

 

[5BarVT]

You might have to claim it a new fangled test one!

Paul.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

I've got some ideas for how to make some stencil boxes using plasticard and brass. Might have a go on the weekend. 

 

Final query before I start acquiring signals is to do woth 1970s signal naming convention. 

 

Would I get away with either WN for Wellington or some letter code for whatever I name my fictional town? 

 

As for numbers are these by mile post or simply order they are found on the route. 

 

Is there any difference in numbering up vs down etc.? 

[5BarVT]

3 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

I've got some ideas for how to make some stencil boxes using plasticard and brass. Might have a go on the weekend. 

Orange Quality St wrappers were the right colour. Not sure if they still wrap orange in cellophane (last tin we had, some had gone to paper wrappers (shame!)).

3 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Final query before I start acquiring signals is to do woth 1970s signal naming convention. 

 

Would I get away with either WN for Wellington or some letter code for whatever I name my fictional town? 

 

As for numbers are these by mile post or simply order they are found on the route. 

 

Is there any difference in numbering up vs down etc.? 

Letters: WR tended to use single letters if they could B Birmingham Snow Hill, which then went to LMR so got reused for Bristol. S Slough, so SN Swindon, P Plymouth so PT Port Talbot etc.  Smaller boxes E.g. PR Princes Risboro’ , OX Oxford, so WN Wellington fits nicely.

 

WR numbers increase in direction of running (so E.g. E1 is miles away from E2) odd on the Up, even on the Down.  So depending whereabouts in your box area, the numbers may or may not be close to each other on the two lines.

Signals without points ahead of them (which could be the two leading into the FY if you wanted to pretend that there was more track between the two) had a line prefix and mileage E.g. DM21 UM22 or you could assume the points do exist and number in sequence with the other two.

Shunt signals had their own sequence, where that depended on the size of the panel E.g. Oxford 1xx, Slough 2xx, Gloucester 4xx Bristol 5xx.

Hope that helps rather than confuses.  Pick some numbers and ask for a cross check.

Paul.

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Took a wild stab. I've also read the banner repeater has no identification for my period, is this true or would it have the signal it refers to plus the BR suffix? 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 23/08/2023 at 18:21, 5BarVT said:

What you have shown is not far off.  The yellow star signal would have a Position 1 junction indicator for the branch but wouldn’t need a shunt signal. (WR drivers knew where they were going so didn’t need a shunt signal to tell them to stop beyond the points to come back in, other regions (LMR, ScR might have provided such a shunt).). I would try to move a bit further from the points but not too close to the curve.

Going off scene Red and yellow star signal are fine.

You will need a shunt signal on the toes of the TMD points to get back in.  (70s would have it on the point ties, these days it might be back beyond the branch points.)

The blue star TMD exit would probably be a shunt signal with 2 stencil indicators for 70s.  (WR stencils were quite large and displayed an orange dotted 1 or 2 letter indication.). Where it would go, I’m getting mixed up with current theory and I don’t know if that would apply back then.

Today, it would be at least a loco length clear of the trap point by the running line with a STOP board alongside facing the opposite direction.  That way, the signaller can always signal a loco in clear of the running line.  Back then, the shunt signal might be down by the trap points and require the signalman to phone the depot for permission to signal a loco in.

Paul.

The blue star signal would have to havea trap point in advance of it.  The question of providinga stencil indcator depends very much on date.  For a 1970s installation the WrRprobably wouldn't have provided a stencil indicator on a GPL (they di happen but weren't common).  But there's no reason why a 3 aspect colour couldn't be used and it would have a stencil indicator.

[5BarVT]

16 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Took a wild stab. I've also read the banner repeater has no identification for my period, is this true or would it have the signal it refers to plus the BR suffix? 

I do t think a banner would have had a number plate in that era.

A wild stab is good as it has reminded me of rules I forgot to mention!  Shunt signals follow the Up odd, Down even convention so your would be 252.

Main signals would be 2 digit unless there were extra running lines so I would go for WN72 and WN73.  I might also space the number more, but the up and down sequences had to coincide somewhere so 72/73 isn’t ‘wrong’.

The two stage exit signals are on different lines, so UM108 would be DM108.  However, as they are mileage based that is going to be miles from Paddington and there aren’t many of those - Bath Oldfield Park on the main line, between Westerleigh and Bristol Parkway, just approaching Westbury via Melksham and Warwick on the Chester line.  If your location is near Wellington I would go for UM158 and DM159 which puts them between Oakengates and Wellington.  You will need to have a 159 milepost somewhere between them!

 

Back in that era, WR used black on white signal number plates with a different font to modern ones.

Paul.

[The Johnster]

Going back a few posts, I'm a bit worried about your fiddle yard.  I know that it's desirable to shoehorn as many storage roads in as you can, and you can't have too many, but it is also desirable to leave a little space between the roads in case you have to lift stock off or place it on the track by hand, for your fingers to get inbetween adjacent rows of stock without nudging and possibly derailing them; perhaps one or two of the shorter roads can be sacrificed to allow a little extra gap for this purpose.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Going back a few posts, I'm a bit worried about your fiddle yard.  I know that it's desirable to shoehorn as many storage roads in as you can, and you can't have too many, but it is also desirable to leave a little space between the roads in case you have to lift stock off or place it on the track by hand, for your fingers to get inbetween adjacent rows of stock without nudging and possibly derailing them; perhaps one or two of the shorter roads can be sacrificed to allow a little extra gap for this purpose.

 

morning,

Touch wood I'm hoping to avoid moving anything by hand in the storage yard (particullarly as the branch line terminus is going to be about 8 inches above the storage baseboard. and will shunt any  spare stock with locos.

 

If im having derailments frequent enough to be an annoyance then I think I'll be fixing the track laying rather than cursing their proximity.  ( I dont mind one or two derailments in a long running session but any mre than a few an hour take the enjoyment out i find)

 

Anyway thanks for the advice, its deffinately food for thaught. For now all of the tracks are at peco streamline spacing (except on the corners) and for now that gives me enough space to move things as necessary.

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

another stab, Altered a few numbers also put in a second option for leaving the tmd (BLUE) based on a signal I found somewhere online. Not sure if i need the position light underneath the 3 aspect and what to number it (unless i can still use 254)

 

 

Heres a sig I found online that I thought could work for the blue star. (its actually a signal stationmaster posted on a different thread) again the stencils would be CB DM UM (cherrybrook branch, down main, up main)

 

[Harlequin]

35 minutes ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

 

morning,

Touch wood I'm hoping to avoid moving anything by hand in the storage yard (particullarly as the branch line terminus is going to be about 8 inches above the storage baseboard. and will shunt any  spare stock with locos.

 

If im having derailments frequent enough to be an annoyance then I think I'll be fixing the track laying rather than cursing their proximity.  ( I dont mind one or two derailments in a long running session but any mre than a few an hour take the enjoyment out i find)

 

Anyway thanks for the advice, its deffinately food for thaught. For now all of the tracks are at peco streamline spacing (except on the corners) and for now that gives me enough space to move things as necessary.

 

 

What's the gradient up to your branch line terminus?

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

8 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

What's the gradient up to your branch line terminus?

 

3% . but im only gonna be using 4 coach trains (or goods equiv length) and im planning on using the dcc concepts magnet system for traction with pannier tanks  and 08 shunters etc.

 

[Harlequin]

12 minutes ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

3% . but im only gonna be using 4 coach trains (or goods equiv length) and im planning on using the dcc concepts magnet system for traction with pannier tanks  and 08 shunters etc.

 

 

Are you sure you've got that right? My guesstimate is that it would be much steeper. Where does your branch line start and stop rising on your plans?

 

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

 

Are you sure you've got that right? My guesstimate is that it would be much steeper. Where does your branch line start and stop rising on your plans?

 

Appologies  I forgot to mention the mainline slopes up across the viaduct to the tmd which is 45mm above datum. Then back down again before the lift out section before entering storage again. the slope is about 1.5% to 2% with easements at each end.

 

The branch line starts at 45mm above datum (on the tmd board and slopes up 3% over 12ft  until it reaches the storage board. Here the branch line scene will start and the inlcine reduces into a flat level 169mm above the storage baseboard. (6.7 inches). The branchline boards are hopefully going to be built lightweight enough to be portable and i'm thinking of putting them on hinges to allow access to the storage yard more easily. The idea being the terminus only needs to be just high enough to allow running in the storage yard plus enough height for cctv cameras to be able to view the tracks with  fisheye lense. then if i ever need to get hands on with the storage yard i can remove or fold up the branch somehow.

 

here is a rough sketch.

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 25/08/2023 at 12:44, 5BarVT said:

I do t think a banner would have had a number plate in that era.

A wild stab is good as it has reminded me of rules I forgot to mention!  Shunt signals follow the Up odd, Down even convention so your would be 252.

Main signals would be 2 digit unless there were extra running lines so I would go for WN72 and WN73.  I might also space the number more, but the up and down sequences had to coincide somewhere so 72/73 isn’t ‘wrong’.

The two stage exit signals are on different lines, so UM108 would be DM108.  However, as they are mileage based that is going to be miles from Paddington and there aren’t many of those - Bath Oldfield Park on the main line, between Westerleigh and Bristol Parkway, just approaching Westbury via Melksham and Warwick on the Chester line.  If your location is near Wellington I would go for UM158 and DM159 which puts them between Oakengates and Wellington.  You will need to have a 159 milepost somewhere between them!

 

Back in that era, WR used black on white signal number plates with a different font to modern ones.

Paul.

Watch out for different suffixes on autos as they varied on different routes apart from the obvious M and R suffixes for Main and Relief Lines.  Thus Westbury line from Reading the autos were suffixed 'W right through to Castle Cary west of where they were suffixed A on the Athelney route'.  Swindo to Standiah Jcn they were suffixed K (for Kemble route).  Penarth Curve to Radyr Quarry they were suffixed T.  On the Badminton Line they were suffixed B.  Plus various others.

 

As far as controlled signals were concerned Down Direction running signal were numbered in even numbers and Up direction with odd numbers - a practice which goes way back into GWR days (although it didn't apply to multiple asepct signals back then but it was used for autos semaphores on the E&SB line).

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Just thinking about the branchline. I'm keen to run dmu passenger stock plus one or two 4 coach mk1 rakes. 

 

For the goods side I'm thinking some mixed local goods (whatever could reasonably be leftover by 68-70)  and then some sort of maintenence/ permanent way yard. 

 

Is there any other small industry which would provide a reason for my branch line to remain open (other than rule 1). I've thought about petrol and I suppose coal could be an obvious one, any other niche industries which could necessitate a branch line staying past Dr Beecham atleast until Tops. 

[Harlequin]

40 minutes ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Just thinking about the branchline. I'm keen to run dmu passenger stock plus one or two 4 coach mk1 rakes. 

 

For the goods side I'm thinking some mixed local goods (whatever could reasonably be leftover by 68-70)  and then some sort of maintenence/ permanent way yard. 

 

Is there any other small industry which would provide a reason for my branch line to remain open (other than rule 1). I've thought about petrol and I suppose coal could be an obvious one, any other niche industries which could necessitate a branch line staying past Dr Beecham atleast until Tops. 

 

Passenger services were usually cut first with goods services struggling on using a cut-back line for a few more years, maybe many more if there was a specific industry such as a dairy or a quarry that justified it.

 

You need a really extreme back story to justify running 4 coach trains regularly on a branchline with the Beeching axe hanging over it in that era. It doesn't add up.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Harlequin

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Passenger services were usually cut first with goods services struggling on using a cut-back line for a few more years, maybe many more if there was a specific industry such as a dairy or a quarry that justified it.

 

You need a really extreme back story to justify running 4 coach trains regularly on a branchline with the Beeching axe hanging over it in that era. It doesn't add up.

 

how about 3-4 coach parcels with an implied sorting office / distribution depot, plus 2 or 3 coach DMU and a 121 bubble car.

 

some mixed goods struggling along 

 

plus an industry siding yet to be selected

[The Johnster]

Rail-served industries that The Johnster remembers still plodding along in the early 70s in the Cardiff area included a paper mill, wagon works, scrapyards, and oil depots, both tank farms and distribution depots where oil was carried in drums loaded in opens or vanfits.  Canton Sidings was used as an unloading facilty by London Brick, bricks arriving from Calvert in ‘pipe’wagons.  Ely paper mill had an RSH saddle tank and Powell Dyffryn wagon works at Blackweir had a small diesel, can’t remember exactly what to my shame; both these locos were kept in immaculate condition and a pleasure to see.  PD were using the former Radyr loco shed building as a tank wagon cleaning facilty, flammable gases being burned off at Blackweir.  There were Curran’s, and Renold Chain (who made heavy duty clutch mechanisms), large engineering concerns on the Riverside branch, open until 1969, sending product out in vanfits and opens.  
 

How about a metal processing works, for electroplating and galvanising, traffic in and out.  Or a foundry; steel billets and occasional casting sand in, finished product out.  I believe your area has some historical form in this field, something to do with a bridge, made perhaps of, um, iron, an ‘Ironbridge’, if you will…

Edited September 28, 2023 by The Johnster