BR AC electric locos-early cab roof colours

[rodent279]

What colour were the cab & centre roofs of the earlyBR AC electric locos,  classes AL1-AL5, in electric blue? Was it white, or some sort of off-white, cream colour?

Would Humbrol no. 41 Ivory do?

Cheers N

[ISW]

13 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

What colour were the cab & centre roofs of the earlyBR AC electric locos,  classes AL1-AL5, in electric blue? Was it white, or some sort of off-white, cream colour?

Would Humbrol no. 41 Ivory do?

Cheers N

 

According to 'British Rail 1948-78 - A Journey by Design' the "Livery was 'electric blue' with a white cab roof and pale grey window surround ..." (plate 206) and "... red buffer beams ..." (plate 266)

 

Ian

[TheSignalEngineer]

They were white and depending on how long since painted covered with a spattering of pantogragh and catenary dirt.

[Wickham Green too]

....... and a selection of kamikaze insects.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Some examples lined up at Longsight in 1962. E3069 was about 2 months old at the time of the photo.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1050452084/ed565537b

Note the slight difference of the blue band on AL1 and AL5

Edited January 8, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer

[Wickham Green too]

in a lot of those pictures it's almost impossible to detect the difference between the "white cab roof and pale grey window surround" ! ( even when the roof appears to be clean )

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

in a lot of those pictures it's almost impossible to detect the difference between the "white cab roof and pale grey window surround" ! ( even when the roof appears to be clean )

Yes, I've got a picture of an AL6 at New Street in 1967 and the roof looks darker than the window surround.

[rodent279]

Thanks for all the replies so far. It seemed like an obvious question, but as always, there is more to the subject than at first sight. I'd just assumed it was some sort of white, but hadn't realised that the window surround was a subtly different shade.

I'm touching up the cab roofs on a Triang R353 E3001 in electric blue. I think I'd probably get away with Humbrol no.41 Ivory, or any generic white for that matter. Most people won't know the difference.  The window surrounds are the same blue as the body on my model, which is wrong. Not sure I'll attempt correcting that, I doubt my abilities with a paintbrush on such a small area!

Edited January 8, 2023 by rodent279

[The Johnster]

The white dome-ends of the AL series cab roofs were used on 1st generation dmmus as well.  If there was ever a purpose or reason for this embellishment, beyond that it looked nice, I was never let in on the secret, and if it was just to look nice, why were the cab roof dome-ends on some pre-war SR emus and diesels like 31s and 47s, which had that sort of domey shape not also painted white?

 

Railways are engineering and everything is supposed to make sense and be for a logical purpose and reason, or so it is alleged…

 

[Halvarras]

7 hours ago, rodent279 said:

The window surrounds are the same blue as the body on my model, which is wrong. Not sure I'll attempt correcting that, I doubt my abilities with a paintbrush on such a small area!

 

After 55 years of practice I don't doubt my abilities with a paintbrush (and back then I did have a Tri-ang AL1 I repainted in blue full yellow as E3012) but even I wouldn't attempt this without masking tape! But proper modelling masking tape such as that produced by Tamiya, not the cheap stuff intended for home decorating etc. For hand painting purposes I usually stick this onto a piece of plate glass or mirror and slice it into thinner strips with knife blade and steel rule - it makes it easier to handle and also makes the roll go much further - and keep a small flat-bladed screwdriver handy for carefully pressing the tape down along the 'paint edge', especially in and around corners.

This kind of job required a small brush, not a large one, and don't forget - many thin coats are better than a couple of thick ones!

 

Have I tempted you to have a go😉?!

[rodent279]

5 hours ago, Halvarras said:

Have I tempted you to have a go😉?!

Maybe. But looking on ebay, these things go for astonishing amounts, even unboxed, not in mint condition and with bits missing.

[rodent279]

On 07/01/2023 at 22:59, ISW said:

 

According to 'British Rail 1948-78 - A Journey by Design' the "Livery was 'electric blue' with a white cab roof and pale grey window surround ..." (plate 206) and "... red buffer beams ..." (plate 266)

 

Ian

Thanks. OT question-does the same book also mention the roof colour of EM1's / class 76's, in blue? This seemed to be an off white, almost cream colour when freshly painted, but weathers to a dull grey or even brown.

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... If there was ever a purpose or reason for this embellishment, beyond that it looked nice, I was never let in on the secret, ... Railways are engineering and everything is supposed to make sense and be for a logical purpose and reason, or so it is alleged…

Look at ANY train nowadays and you'll see a livery that SOMEONE thought looked nice ......................................... and, logically, they thought their gaudy creation* would attract people to use the thing !

 

* MY theory on 'design' is that people are employed for the purpose so MUST come up with something that nobody's thought of before .... but so many people have been working on attractive things for so many years that the only things that haven't been done haven't been done 'cos nobody thought they were a very good idea !

[keefer]

16 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Yes, I've got a picture of an AL6 at New Street in 1967 and the roof looks darker than the window surround.

I've seen a few pictures on Flickr which would suggest that the window frames are white but the roof dome is pale (possibly Rail) grey. Remember the AL6s were the first in Rail Blue, so the grey roof makes sense. The locos are clean enough to discount the theory of a weathered white roof.

E3162_Stockport_8-4-66 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

3 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Thanks. OT question-does the same book also mention the roof colour of EM1's / class 76's, in blue? This seemed to be an off white, almost cream colour when freshly painted, but weathers to a dull grey or even brown.

They were a primrose-yellow colour, which looks quite remarkable ex-works but soon just gets covered in grot.

By Neil Pulling on Flickr

Edited January 9, 2023 by keefer

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Look at ANY train nowadays and you'll see a livery that SOMEONE thought looked nice ......................................... and, logically, they thought their gaudy creation* would attract people to use the thing !

 

* MY theory on 'design' is that people are employed for the purpose so MUST come up with something that nobody's thought of before .... but so many people have been working on attractive things for so many years that the only things that haven't been done haven't been done 'cos nobody thought they were a very good idea !

 

Your theory is probably pretty much on the nail, nowadays, but back in the early 60s before 'corporate identity liveries' there should have been a standard to which electric locomotives conformed, and the Woodhead and SR 'boosters' did.  The SR E5xxx and E6xxx went their own ways, though, and the ALs set a new standard livery within their sphere of operation prior to succumbing to the tsunami of Rail Blue post '66.  Diesel locomotive liveries (and for livery purposes these are the same thing as electrics) prior to '66 were all over the shop after the 1955 Plan, but some sort of steam locomotive green usually featured,  Then the WR went a bit nuts with the Westerns and started painting Warships in plain maroon as well, the ER tried golden ochre and blue on 31s, and it seemed to presage an age of 'any colour you like', which changed post '66 to 'any colour you like so long as it's rail blue', no apologies from me to Henry Ford because I don't apologise to racist anti-semitic nazi-supporting capitalist pigs.

 

Nowadays liveries are viewed in a very different way; they are corporate branding of course but there are many corporations, the TOCs, not just one, and some silly liveries have appeared as a result, but they do serve a practical pupose, that of identifying a company's train to the customers (or passengers, as we used to call them in our quaint old primitive service-industry ethics sort of way, a customer buys a product or not as he/she chooses, but a passenger is somebody you owe an obligation to.  Says on the back of the ticket we can't guarantee to get you where you're going, but we'll do our level best; you can just abandon a customer to his fate with a complicated compensation form) so that they board the correct one.

 

Liveries on passenger stock were important for similar reasons in pre-grouping days, and to a lesser extent in the grouping era.  But I doubt that the primary purpose of modern TOC liveries is to attract the bums to the seats, since most of them have little choice in their commutes, but rather to attract the real customers, not the benighted  cash-cow worker drones who buy the tickets but the corporate shareholders, by promoting an image of a company with an established and recogniseable brand identity that has it's act together and is safe and profitable to invest in.  Image is way more important than reality in this world, it's all about perception, smoke and mirrors, my god how the money rolls in.

 

TTBOMK there has never been any livery or even branding which has been universally applied across any British railway network, ever, but British Rail's banger blue was probably the closest, reversed for the Pullmans and a crudely lined version of the b/g livery for the Brighton Bellle; this eventually appeared on the VoR steam engines.  40106 lasted in green long enough to scupper it, though, as this was never painted blue and the large logo liveries and white roofs of Stratford's livery rebellion came in 1977, Jubilee year, by which time the first production HSTs were in service, arguably another livery mould-breaker.  The majority of vacuum and unfitted freight stock had not been made to conform to the 'Railfreight' branding by that time either.

 

But there must have been some reason for the white dome ends over the cabs of the ALs and dmmus, and it bothers me that I don't know it, or why it wasn't universally applied on locomotives with domed cab roofs.

Edited January 9, 2023 by The Johnster

[stewartingram]

White cab roof to reduce heat from the sun for the driver?

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... modern TOC liveries ... to attract the ...corporate shareholders, by promoting an image of a company with an established and recogniseable brand identity that has it's act together and is safe and profitable to invest in.  Image is way more important than reality in this world, it's all about perception, smoke and mirrors, ...

Equally, you'll have noticed that the first thing 'unveiled' when a new scheme is announced - Crossrail f'rinstance - is an image of the sexy new train ................. that'll be many years before there's actually a specification written for that train - nor anything, in detail, for the rest of the project.

[roythebus1]

AL6 cabs were originally white. I saw enough of them in my late spotting days in the mid 1960s.

[The Johnster]

As were all dmmu cabs, but they got so dirty that this was not always obvious...  The dmmu white domed cab roofs lasted into the post '66 blue livery era though and for a very short period into the FYE era, though IIRC there were no rail blue ALs with white cab roofs, irrespective of the size of the yellow panel.  It is of course possible that these relatively new locomotives survived from their initial builds into the FYE era without the major overhauls that would have resulted in repaints.  That said, I'm not any sort of expert on AL livery variations or transition liveries.  There may well have been locos with FYE and the electric blue livery for all I know...

[rodent279]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

As were all dmmu cabs, but they got so dirty that this was not always obvious...  The dmmu white domed cab roofs lasted into the post '66 blue livery era though and for a very short period into the FYE era, though IIRC there were no rail blue ALs with white cab roofs, irrespective of the size of the yellow panel.  It is of course possible that these relatively new locomotives survived from their initial builds into the FYE era without the major overhauls that would have resulted in repaints.  That said, I'm not any sort of expert on AL livery variations or transition liveries.  There may well have been locos with FYE and the electric blue livery for all I know...

Contentious! It's generally accepted that AL6's were in rail blue from the start, not electric blue, therefore there were rail blue AL's with white cab roofs. I stand to be corrected, but I'm sure some at least carried FYE with white cab roof as well. Interesting question raised here- when/which was the last AC electric to lose its white cab roof? (discounting 86233, which carried white cab roofs with standard rail blue 1987-88, and 86426 which was repainted into pseudo-early rail blue with white roofs and cab windows, raised E3195 numerals and lion & wheel aluminium crest in 1987 as well)

[MidlandRed]

AL6s were rail blue from the start (first delivered in 1965) - as for roof and window surround colours, I thought these were white. However there was a thread on here where photos of AL4 E3036 repainted rail blue with syp, and E3028 similar, were posted and certainly with E3036 the rooves looked to be rail grey. E3044 was repainted early on also but was one of the first in all over rail blue with fye. All repaints after late 1966 got the rail blue cab tops and with fye and yellow window surrounds. So taken was I with these that I repainted my Hornby Dublo E3002 accordingly (and renumbered it E3016). My other one remained electric blue but got syp added and was weathered (yes I hear the groans - I still groan about it but I was about 10 yrs old at the time - one has its original pink box and instructions etc as well).

 

As for DMU cab tops, this became generally a WR feature. I always wondered whether BRCW, past whose works eventually to be class 116 and 122 passed every few minutes, copied the white cab tops. The white tops on WR repaints stopped when the fye versions started (early 67 from Swindon). So 55005 got rail blue, fye wrap around over the cab doors and roof coloured cab tops, whereas 55000, 8 and 15 all got the syp, red buffer beam, white cab top with rail blue. Whilst there were other units in the era up to 1966 with white cab tops most were WR (or built at Swindon (eg class 124) or BRCW (some class 104 and 110). 
 

In common with most other classes, many AL locos got the FYE added to existing liveries in the later 60s. 
 

As to the AL loco livery, as well as part of the livery created/ influenced by the design panel as a design, I suspect the white elements were partially to make them more visible to staff on the track. Similarly for DMUs. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by MidlandRed

[rodent279]

4 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

All repaints after late 1966 got the rail blue cab tops and window surrounds

Interesting,  I haven't seen a photo of an AC electric in rail blue with SYP and blue cab roof & window surround,  I've only seen SYP with at least white cab window surrounds. 

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Interesting,  I haven't seen a photo of an AC electric in rail blue with SYP and blue cab roof & window surround,  I've only seen SYP with at least white cab window surrounds. 

Yeah sorry I’ve altered my post. I don’t think any rail blue with blue cab tops had syp. 
 

However the question with the odd AL4 rail blue repaint (E3036) was whether the cab tops were rail grey - some Flickr photos appeared in a thread on RMWeb of the loco at an exhibition at Chester and they don’t look white. Of course, class AL4 was largely stored after 1967 - E3044 got repainted in the overall rail blue with fye and became the exhibition loco, appearing at various exhibitions and open days. Apparently E3028 got repainted rail blue, syp, white or rail grey cab tops/window surrounds etc as a result of collision damage - that wasn’t in service that long before storage of the class in the later 60s also. 
 

It’s interesting to note that 225 new mk 2 coaches (blue and grey) were ordered by April 1965, and allocated (much to the annoyance of ER and WR whose provision was delayed as a result) to the WCML electrification - thus all trains thereon from early 1967 (except catering vehicles and BGs - which were 100 mph capable and repainted blue and grey) comprised the new stock with (in the case of AL6 hauled trains, which many passenger trains were) rail blue locos. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by MidlandRed

[rodent279]

And some ex- LMS designed stock went blue & grey (not sure if any actually built by the LMS went b/g-perhaps @Coach bogie or @robertcwp can tell us?)

Edited January 10, 2023 by rodent279

[rodent279]

8 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Yeah sorry I’ve altered my post. I don’t think any rail blue with blue cab tops had syp. 
 

However the question with the odd AL4 rail blue repaint (E3036) was whether the cab tops were rail grey - some Flickr photos appeared in a thread on RMWeb of the loco at an exhibition at Chester and they don’t look white. Of course, class AL4 was largely stored after 1967 - E3044 got repainted in the overall rail blue with fye and became the exhibition loco, appearing at various exhibitions and open days. Apparently E3028 got repainted rail blue, syp, white or rail grey cab tops/window surrounds etc as a result of collision damage - that wasn’t in service that long before storage of the class in the later 60s also. 
 

It’s interesting to note that 225 new mk 2 coaches (blue and grey) were ordered by April 1965, and allocated (much to the annoyance of ER and WR whose provision was delayed as a result) to the WCML electrification - thus all trains thereon from early 1967 (except catering vehicles and BGs - which were 100 mph capable and repainted blue and grey) comprised the new stock with (in the case of AL6 hauled trains, which many passenger trains were) rail blue locos. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are these the photos you mention?

 

On balance, I'd say thatroof is white. Debatable whether it ran in service like that-possibly not, I think they were in store by then.

Edited January 10, 2023 by rodent279