From Bristol Bulldog to Spitfire, Handley Page Heyford to Lancaster - the revolution in aircraft design in the late 1930s

[Ozexpatriate]

16 minutes ago, 62613 said:

I think that General Sir Archibald Wavell mentioned something similar in his Lees - Jones Lecture, On Generalship, in 1938. Does anyone know where you could obtain a copy.

Plenty of copies available online:

 

Generals and Generalship: The Lees Knowles Lectures delivered at Trinity College, Cambridge, in 1939

 

Used and new.

[jjb1970]

North Africa really showed Rommel's limitations as a commander. He was a brilliant tactician and one of the finest battlefield commanders of the war, daring, courageous, able to read a battle and lead his men (I say lead deliberately).

 

However, he saw logistics and getting supplies to North Africa as somebody else's problem and failed to appreciate the difficulties of getting large quantities of material across a contested maritime and aerial supply line. And once in Africa the problems of moving supplies hundreds of miles from Libyan ports. 

 

Kesselring saw Malta as the key, and wanted to capture Malta, but at a time when Kesselring was arguing in favour of Hercules (the plan to invade Malta) and building the necessary resources Rommel made another lunge into Egypt and demanded ever more resources.

 

Whether Hercules would have worked is of course unknown given that it never happened, but Kesselring was a far more able higher level commander than Rommel.

[62613]

On 04/02/2023 at 22:26, Ozexpatriate said:

Besides the Suez Canal?

Not really. It never operated as intended during the war. All shipping was going round the bottom of Africa or through the Panama Canal. Any unloading of Empire army supplies and troop was done at Red Sea ports, which after May 1941, was a British lake.

[whart57]

On 04/02/2023 at 22:14, 62613 said:

He sent Rommel to Libya because he couldn't bear the thought of his ally Mussolini being humiliated; there wasn't anything of real strategic value for the Germans in North Africa. He invaded Yugoslavia after a British - backed coup toppled a leader who was more or less allied to him, there was a follow - on into Greece and then Crete, just because British Empire troops were in both places. The casualties incurred by the Germans in the invasion of Crete quite probably saved Cyprus and, long - term, Malta.

 

Yugoslavia is an interesting point, one that reaches back to 1914 and still has relevance today. Russia has always sought to control the Balkans through the Serbs. That's why the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in 1914 by Serb nationalists escalated into WW1. It was Russia mobilising to support Serbia against Austria that started the dominoes tumbling. In 1941 German strategy turned to the Soviet Union, and the Balkans were potentially a weak flank. A military coup in Romania brought that country onto Hitler's side and Bulgaria was already sympathetic to fascism. The coup in Yugoslavia turned the major Balkan country ito being potentially hostile to Germany just as Germany was embarking on a major campaign and that had to be dealt with. As did clearing up Mussolini's mess in Albania and Greece.

[jjb1970]

Some German officers seem to have had a grand idea of Rommel driving through Egypt then swinging North to link up with army group A in the Caucasus.

 

The German army never really got the significance of the Mediterranean Theatre, it was always a side show which they inherited thanks to Italian failures and a diversion from the USSR. Although some in the navy did promote it as a major theatre and advocated strategic ideas. That said, some of the German army indifference was grounded in the view that Britain was a largely defeated enemy in 1941 and that victory in the USSR would force Britain out of the war.

 

In this case, the German army may have been correct, despite their failure to appreciate the risks and opportunities in the Mediterranean. If they won in the USSR they could have cleaned up the mess in the South later. Victory in the Mediterranean would have been pointless if they were defeated by the Soviets. 

 

Their problem was deciding to wage war against the USSR, which was bad enough. Then in December 1941 declaring war on the USA.

 

Since the war every bad decision and nefarious deed made by Germany has been laid at the door of AH by some historians and commentators. Largely because of the reasonable need to rehabilitate Germany into NATO in the 1950's and self-serving memoirs by those generals who survived (aided by fans such as Basil Liddell Hart). In reality the German high command woefully under estimated the USSR, made all sorts of blunders and never had a strategic plan for the war in the East beyond an assumption and then a prayer that they'd win.

[whart57]

The Germans made the same mistake as Napoleon, namely believing that if the western part of Russia was captured and controlled the Russians would capitulate. Neither Hitler nor Napoleon had any sense of exactly how much lay beyond Moscow, and how far the Russians could keep retreating.

[jjb1970]

One of the things which I found surprising when I looked at figures a while ago is that the ratio of combat losses between the axis and soviet armed forces is closer than I'd always thought. I was at school and grew up in an era when the assumption was that the soviets were killed in droves and that Germany achieved a huge kill ratio.

 

Looking at the figures it seems that while the axis did indeed achieve a favourable kill ratio it was nothing like as high as was once assumed. If looking at KIA/MIA/DOW the ratio between axis and soviet forces appears to have been about 1.5:1. Soviet losses were massively inflated by the number of PoW deaths in captivity relative to axis PoW deaths. And sadly the scale of civilian losses was horrific.

 

One reason is horrendous German losses in the final year of the war, whereas soviet losses were quite heavily loaded towards the first half of the war the opposite was true for Germany.

[whart57]

I was once in Mettingen, a small town in Germany near the Dutch border and happened to be going through the churchyard. There was a small section set aside for the graves of German soldiers killed in WW2. The most notable thing about it was the ages of the men in the graves. They were from 1945 and were either teenagers or men over 40, nothing in between. Likewise in the Battle of Arnhem, taking on the British paras in the bitter fighting around the village of Oosterbeek was a unit made up of teenagers. The German brigade commander complained bitterly to his superiors that putting them into the battle amounted to infanticide. In the last weeks the Germans were even putting boys from the Hitler Youth into the front line. It's been said, with justification, that the country the Nazis harmed most was Germany. Something that should perhaps be mentioned more often today when we have idiots like Putin and Trump running countries.

[jjb1970]

AH seems to have been of the view that if the German people didn't emerge victorious then they weren't worthy of his leadership and deserved to perish. People in East Germany especially were caught between a German regime that was increasingly unhinged and murderous towards its own people and a vengeful Soviet army. 

[OnTheBranchline]

Why was Hugh Dowding pushed out into retirement in 1942 when he is generally credited as a major factor in the RAF’s victory in the Battle of Britain?

[pH]

1 hour ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Why was Hugh Dowding pushed out into retirement in 1942 when he is generally credited as a major factor in the RAF’s victory in the Battle of Britain?

A lot to read here:

 

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-big-wing-controversy-and-hugh-downings-fall-from-grace/

 

I don’t know how reliable it is, though - you’ll have to judge for yourself. 

[OnTheBranchline]

46 minutes ago, pH said:

A lot to read here:

 

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-big-wing-controversy-and-hugh-downings-fall-from-grace/

 

I don’t know how reliable it is, though - you’ll have to judge for yourself. 

 

So if we let the enemy aircraft come to us and drop all their bombs on us, then we shoot them down as one big wing as they leave - brilliant idea! 🤨

Edited February 13, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[62613]

On 13/02/2023 at 02:48, pH said:

A lot to read here:

 

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-big-wing-controversy-and-hugh-downings-fall-from-grace/

 

I don’t know how reliable it is, though - you’ll have to judge for yourself. 

Seems quite a good article.

[62613]

On 13/02/2023 at 03:19, OnTheBranchline said:

 

So if we let the enemy aircraft come to us and drop all their bombs on us, then we shoot them down as one big wing as they leave - brilliant idea! 🤨

Seemingly, after the BoB was over Fighter Command wargamed it, with 11 group using "Big Wing" tactics; the result was that they were knocked out in fairly short order.

[OnTheBranchline]

2 hours ago, 62613 said:

Seemingly, after the BoB was over Fighter Command wargamed it, with 11 group using "Big Wing" tactics; the result was that they were knocked out in fairly short order.

Didn't the guy who advocate for Big Wing die in a plane crash because he ordered a takeoff in bad conditions? Not the brightest crayon.

[F-UnitMad]

On 13/02/2023 at 02:48, pH said:

A lot to read here:

 

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-big-wing-controversy-and-hugh-downings-fall-from-grace/

 

I don’t know how reliable it is, though - you’ll have to judge for yourself. 

 

3 hours ago, 62613 said:

Seems quite a good article.

It is, only slightly spoiled by using a Luftwaffe 'faked' photo of a Spitfire - the wing roundels are too far inboard. IIRC it's not the only such photo; it was a Spit that was captured in flying condition, but why the roundels were painted 'wrong' is uncertain.

18 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Didn't the guy who advocate for Big Wing die in a plane crash because he ordered a takeoff in bad conditions? Not the brightest crayon.

He (Trafford Leigh-Mallory) did indeed die in a plane crash, as outlined in the linked article, but it was bad weather over mountains rather than at takeoff. I'd say a far too large Ego rather than not the brightest crayon. 😉

[jjb1970]

On bombing, I follow the USNI FB page (for anyone who likes warships, the USNI magazine Proceedings is highly recommended reading) and saw this post, I suppose it shows that cancelling people for going 'off message' is not new:

 

[Barry Ten]

I'm currently reading Pierre Clostermann's memoir The Big Show (which also touches on the death of Rommel), but one thing that's puzzled me is a reference to a Spitfire fitted with a "plastic propeller". Can anyone shed any light on this, or is it perhaps just an accident of translation from the original French?

[Hroth]

35 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

I'm currently reading Pierre Clostermann's memoir The Big Show (which also touches on the death of Rommel), but one thing that's puzzled me is a reference to a Spitfire fitted with a "plastic propeller". Can anyone shed any light on this, or is it perhaps just an accident of translation from the original French?

 

Perhaps the author used some colloquial French expression for "variable pitch" and the translator misinterpreted it as "plastic"?

 

[burgundy]

10 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

I'm currently reading Pierre Clostermann's memoir The Big Show (which also touches on the death of Rommel), but one thing that's puzzled me is a reference to a Spitfire fitted with a "plastic propeller". Can anyone shed any light on this, or is it perhaps just an accident of translation from the original French?

Fly a Spitfire Biggin Hill What Were Spitfire Propellers Made From? - Fly a Spitfire Biggin Hill

This suggests that late-model propellors were made from compressed, laminated wood. I wonder if this might end up being translated as "plastic"?

Best wishes 

Eric

[Fat Controller]

14 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

I'm currently reading Pierre Clostermann's memoir The Big Show (which also touches on the death of Rommel), but one thing that's puzzled me is a reference to a Spitfire fitted with a "plastic propeller". Can anyone shed any light on this, or is it perhaps just an accident of translation from the original French?

Any chance you could post the French original ?

[Barry Ten]

4 hours ago, burgundy said:

Fly a Spitfire Biggin Hill What Were Spitfire Propellers Made From? - Fly a Spitfire Biggin Hill

This suggests that late-model propellors were made from compressed, laminated wood. I wonder if this might end up being translated as "plastic"?

Best wishes 

Eric

 

That's what I wodered as well, having looked up the same article. Terms like "variable pitch" crop up here and there so I think the text is fairly accurate otherwise.

[Barry Ten]

33 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Any chance you could post the French original ?

 

I don't have it, unfortunately, only a recent English paperback.

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I don't have it, unfortunately, only a recent English paperback.

Thanks, anyway. Shame the question wasn't asked a decade ago, as one of my late mother-in-law's neighbours (who my wife used to visit, had worked in a factory that manufactured propellers during WW2.

[drmditch]

If I have followed this thread correctly, no-one yet seems to have mentioned the development of Naval aircraft, both land/coastal-based and those capable of being flown-off and recovered on/by ships.

 

Considering the importance of such aircraft in both the Atlantic and Pacific wars, is this not surprising?

 

As far as I can see, the RN suffered in 1918 by the removal of it's Air Arm from Admiralty control, and perhaps even more significantly the removal to the RAF of it's more air-minded and air-experienced officers  of middle rank. 

 

If these problems had been overcome earlier than they were (with the lend-lease of American aircraft) , could not the British aircraft industry have developed better (and earlier) :-

    Carrier-based reconnaissance /strike bomber

    Carrier based fighter aircraft

    Long-range and long endurance maritime patrol aircraft.**

 

** Could the Sunderland have been developed further?