What does the future hold for preserved railways?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

...... it would help if there was something of interest at both ends of the line. 

I think that's a good point,  many of these railways go from nowhere to nowhere. 

 

Unlike, for example, the Vale of Rheidol railway. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by TEAMYAKIMA

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I think that's a good point,  many of these railways go from nowhere to nowhere. 

Bit late to do much about that now, to be fair a lot of these lines closed for precisely that reason - they went nowhere that would justify the line any longer.

[rogerzilla]

7 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Bit late to do much about that now, to be fair a lot of these lines closed for precisely that reason - they went nowhere that would justify the line any longer.

There are issues with modern buildings and one bridge but the local council is supportive of a southern extension of GWSR to Cheltenham town, so it cam take race day traffic to the existing Race Course station.

[2E Sub Shed]

4 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

There are issues with modern buildings and one bridge but the local council is supportive of a southern extension of GWSR to Cheltenham town, so it cam take race day traffic to the existing Race Course station.

Additionally when the Cotswold redoubling occurred at Honybourne, passive accommodation for the GWSR was made with a platform & a new bridge with space for  the GWSR to put a track through.

[Jonboy]

One of the issues I saw in another volunteer sector was the tightening of the screws in terms of legal compliance, it turned off new volunteers as the initial entry training was higher (not to mention 3 month plus delays in the vetting process) and led to more pressure on existing members to complete training that wasn’t overly relevant to their reasons for volunteering.

This turned into a cycle of more and more reliance on the volunteers that were skilled in these areas already, who were often skilled from their professional life’s and looking for some variety in their volunteer roles…

[Ian Smeeton]

The future does not look too black at the moment.

 

I started this topic : 

 

 

last year to talk about my own experiences, and to try and encourage others to give volunteering a try.

 

While the thread hasn't resulted in any new members for Rocks by Rail, at least a couple of respondents have gone along to their own local heritage railways and joined, or rejoined. Their experiences seem to have been positive.

 

The entire voluntary sector is struggling, partly down to safeguarding requirements, but also due to a hangover from the pandemic.

 

Even personally, I have been struggling to find the time to spare, due to a combination of 6 day weeks at work, and a recent operation which has put me on the sick for the last week or two. Hopefully after my return to work on Thursday, things will change for the better.

 

At Rocks by Rail we have benefited from a few new recruits over the last year, ranging from a 15 year old (accompanied by his grandfather) to a 95 year old, who is happy with a polishing rag and the chance to talk the hind legs off visitors.

 

@Woody C joined us a couple of years ago on retirement, and came along to the members' social day last weekend, filmed this : 

 

 

and commented on volunteering.

 

The future, for us, as a small railway, going from nowhere in particular to somewhere even less interesting, while not shining bright, at least has a distinct positive glow.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Jeremy Cumberland]

2 hours ago, Jonboy said:

One of the issues I saw in another volunteer sector was the tightening of the screws in terms of legal compliance, it turned off new volunteers as the initial entry training was higher (not to mention 3 month plus delays in the vetting process) and led to more pressure on existing members to complete training that wasn’t overly relevant to their reasons for volunteering.

This turned into a cycle of more and more reliance on the volunteers that were skilled in these areas already, who were often skilled from their professional life’s and looking for some variety in their volunteer roles…

I expect that doesn't apply so much in the heritage railway sector, not from the volunteer's perspective at any rate, not if the railway is well-run.

 

There's a lot more onus on railway management to ensure the competency of staff, and operating staff in particular. On the railway where I volunteer, inductions now need to be done every year, training takes longer, and there are periodic reassessments of both practical ability and theoretical knowledge. All this has to be orginised and documented and it all takes person-hours. This could mean that heritage railways set a slightly higher bar on new volunteer recruits, but quite honestly I haven't noticed any difference; people applying for positions to which they are not suited have always been gently directed to roles that are a better match for them, ever since I have been involved in preserved railways, as they were called then.

 

While heritage railways might need to devote extra resources to volunteer management, this ought not make much of a difference from the perspective of the new volunteer. Yes, they will have to attend an induction (perhaps done virtually). Yes, they will spend longer in training than they might have done in the past, but these are generally good things, considering what we used to do in the past. No more getting trained as a guard in the morning and getting passed out in the afternoon, as happened to me as a 16 year old on the first railway I volunteered at. No more keeping your driver's ticket on just one turn a year with never a refresher or a reassessment, as happened to me a little more recently. The difficulty, if there is one, is for the railway management to accommodate all this extra work, and to arrange things like induction sessions at times that suit the volunteers.

 

I think @Ian Smeeton 's posts about Rocks by Rail, which I have been enjoying, show what is possible with the right attitude. Enthusiasm does tend to breed enthusiasm, after all. It needn't be at the expense of professionalism or complaince.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Jeremy C

[Nick C]

7 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

I expect that doesn't apply so much in the heritage railway sector, not from the volunteer's perspective at any rate, not if the railway is well-run.

 

There's a lot more onus on railway management to ensure the competency of staff, and operating staff in particular. On the railway where I volunteer, inductions now need to be done every year, training takes longer, and there are periodic reassessments of both practical ability and theoretical knowledge. All this has to be orginised and documented and it all takes person-hours. This could mean that heritage railways set a slightly higher bar on new volunteer recruits, but quite honestly I haven't noticed any difference; people applying for positions to which they are not suited have always been gently directed to roles that are a better match for them, ever since I have been involved in preserved railways, as they were called then.

 

While heritage railways might need to devote extra resources to volunteer management, this ought not make much of a difference from the perspective of the new volunteer. Yes, they will have to attend an induction (perhaps done virtually). Yes, they will spend longer in training than they might have done in the past, but these are generally good things, considering what we used to do in the past. No more getting trained as a guard in the morning and getting passed out in the afternoon, as happened to me as a 16 year old on the first railway I volunteered at. No more keeping your driver's ticket on just one turn a year with never a refresher or a reassessment, as happened to me a little more recently. The difficulty, if there is one, is for the railway management to accommodate all this extra work, and to arrange things like induction sessions at times that suit the volunteers.

 

I think @Ian Smeeton 's posts about Rocks by Rail, which I have been enjoying, show what is possible with the right attitude. Enthusiasm does tend to breed enthusiasm, after all. It needn't be at the expense of professionalism or complaince.

A lot of that extra work is a one off though, once you've got your safety management system set up, with proper databases etc, it's probably easier to keep up to date than the many disconnected paper based systems a lot of railways had before. 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

10 hours ago, Nick C said:

A lot of that extra work is a one off though, once you've got your safety management system set up, with proper databases etc, it's probably easier to keep up to date than the many disconnected paper based systems a lot of railways had before. 

Some of it is, certainly, but the sheer amount of training, testing and assessment that now needs to be carried out, and the corresponding data entry into whatever record keeping system is used, requires a considerable number of person-hours.

 

Where I volunteer, there are something like 60 qualified guards. Guards are re-assessed every three years, meaning that 20 days a year on average are taken up with assessments. That might not sound much, but it is 8% of a person-year for someone working full time. Okay, so an assessment only takes about three hours on this particular railway, but it does rather disrupt that person's ordinary work, and that's just for guards. Add in drivers, firemen, signallers, controllers, track workers, S&T worers and whatever other safety-critical roles that railways have, and it all adds up to a great many person-days spent in what is essentially just administration.

 

I am not sure how many volunteers there are in total, but the last couple of years we've had something like 30 induction sessions in the off-season, each taking half a day, which all volunteers need to attend either in person or on Teams/Zoom. That's another 15 person-days for the person running the sessions.

 

Compare that to 20 years ago, when annual inductions and periodic re-assessments were unknown on the railway I volunteered at (a different one). Just an annual driver's medical, and do your one turn a year (and I am not  sure that anyone actually kept track of that). Yes, the railway might have had inefficient paper-based systems, but there wasn't much paper that needed to be filed away.

 

None of this is, I think, a bad thing, but it imposes an additional burden on heritage railways that they didn't use to face, and if a railway is already facing problems, and in particular if they are already short of people, then they might find it difficult to accommodate this extra work.

[Chris M]

Its all about keeping safe and avoiding risks which does create quite a burden. Some of it is no doubt over the top but it is important to keep our heritage railways safe.

 

Things have changed out of all recognition over the last 50 years or so. I well remember as a 15 year old back in 1970 having the responsibility of checking a gated railway crossing over a private road was clear for the preserved trains that had just started running. The training was simple - when you see a train coming hold up the green flag if the crossing is clear or the red flag if it is not clear. Even at the tender age of fifteen I knew enough to keep off the track, I even knew not to walk on wooden sleepers when they were wet. The first train of the day dropped me off and the last train picked me up. I clambered up and down without training. There was no such thing as hi-viz vests on preserved railways in those day but then I could hear the train when it was a couple of miles away. Lunch was thrown down from a passing train if I was lucky. I should point out that I had worked on the PW gang for this railway so those in charge knew me and knew that I was sensible. I revised for school exams in between trains. Despite the lack of training and my tender age I survived and there were no incidents. Anyone suggesting having a 15 year old doing the same thing today would probably be fired on the spot! I'm not suggesting we are wrong today or what was done 50 years ago was wrong, just that today standards are different and we are all much more safety conscious.

 

After the first year of running the flagman at the gate was dropped as the road was hardly ever used and those that might use it were by now very aware that preserved trains were running. Also the crossing is on a straight piece of track and there is good visibility along the railway in both directions. Sadly there was a fatal accident at this very crossing some decades later; no blame was attached to the railway.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Chris M

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Another issue is the changing face of potential travellers - and of course I can only speak for myself in this regard.

 

50 years ago I had recently given up being a train spotter and I was keen to visit preserved railways to re-live my steam spotting experiences, take some photos and see the new arrivals from Barry scrapyard which were strewn around the yards under tarpaulins.

 

Now, 50 years later, I have faded memories of my spotting days - I've moved on. Today, if I were to visit a heritage railway it would only be with my wife and a nice meal with some nice wine in a nicely restored dining car would be the minimum needed for me to make such a visit and I wouldn't want to to be staring at rusting hulks which might never be restored. I'm sorry to say that I would expect the same level of professionalism and presentation as I would if I visited any other visitor attraction, because for me (and I can only speak for myself) heritage railways are just that now - a visitor attraction.

[Reorte]

On 15/01/2023 at 15:15, TEAMYAKIMA said:

Another issue is the changing face of potential travellers - and of course I can only speak for myself in this regard.

 

50 years ago I had recently given up being a train spotter and I was keen to visit preserved railways to re-live my steam spotting experiences, take some photos and see the new arrivals from Barry scrapyard which were strewn around the yards under tarpaulins.

 

Now, 50 years later, I have faded memories of my spotting days - I've moved on. Today, if I were to visit a heritage railway it would only be with my wife and a nice meal with some nice wine in a nicely restored dining car would be the minimum needed for me to make such a visit and I wouldn't want to to be staring at rusting hulks which might never be restored. I'm sorry to say that I would expect the same level of professionalism and presentation as I would if I visited any other visitor attraction, because for me (and I can only speak for myself) heritage railways are just that now - a visitor attraction.

I visit them for getting as close as is possible (not that it's all that close) to something I like the look of that I was born too late to experience in reality.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

33 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I visit them for getting as close as is possible (not that it's all that close) to something I like the look of that I was born too late to experience in reality.

Absolutely, everyone will have their own individual view - everyone's view is equally valid.

[Northmoor]

On 13/01/2023 at 15:17, Steamport Southport said:

Dinting closed due to a disagreement with the owner of the site. Nothing at all to do with the viability of the scheme. Other schemes changed focus such as Tyseley, Steamtown and Steamport. 

 

I don't think there has been many actual failed schemes and most of them went through far worse crises than the current one. People seem to have short memories.

There is an misapprehension that preservation has just grown and grown and the often-predicted closures have never happened.  I did a count not long ago of the number of UK preservation schemes which had got to the stage of opening to the public and running trains but have since closed.  I think the total is nearly 40.  They may not all result from "economic factors", but in every case, the management was responsible for the railway and thus responsible for the decisions made.

 

On 13/01/2023 at 17:19, ikcdab said:

A certain railway in Wales seems to do this very well and it has survived for 70 years in preservation. I have no links with it other than a very satisfied visitor. Other railways also do this but some don't and those are the ones that struggle.

What is remarkable about the Talyllyn is that it continues despite having many factors counting against it:

• It is outside the main tourist area of North Wales (20 mile radius of Snowdon) and its visitor numbers have been on a long term decline since the early 1970s.
• It shares its gauge with only one other railway so the opportunities for swapping locos for gala events are very limited.
• While a delightful run, it doesn't really go anywhere; for most people the destination doesn't really offer anything.

The fact that the Talyllyn survives despite these factors is a credit to those who have led and managed it, especially in the last quarter century.

 

On 13/01/2023 at 17:39, woodenhead said:

What we will see are a lot more stuffed and mounted engines I imagine, as boilers expire the money to re-certificate will be harder to come by and railways will have to concentrate on a few locos with small reserve and a programme to bring other locos back very slowly over time to replace others as their licence expires.

At a talk by the P2 group this week, the speaker said precisely this in answer to a question on the disparity between requirements for preserved railways - mostly short branch lines - and main line operation, which requires large locomotives capable of hauling an economic length train at 75mph.  After their next ticket expires, a lot of larger locomotives may not get overhauled in the foreseeable future as there will be nowhere near enough preserved line hires on offer to cover what is often a £1m overhaul bill.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 13/01/2023 at 22:39, PenrithBeacon said:

The average, non-railway enthusiast customer will be content with a 5 to 7 mile ride each way though it would help if there was something of interest at both ends of the line. 

 

Something of interest at each end is highly desirable, and yes, the distance isn't too important but it does have to be more than a couple of hundred yards (like some of the nascent preservation schemes), but it is essential that at least one of the stations has adequate car parking.  Big limitation for Epping-Ongar, although that does at least have the benefit of proximity to the LT network with a large potential catchment area but currently makes it reliant on the vintage bus from Epping. 

 

Traditionally preservation groups saw it as important to have access (which in practice was usually feasible future access after completion of an unbuilt extension) to the BR system, partly because a small but vocal minority of enthusiasts who didn't drive and wouldn't travel other than by rail, perhaps more for convenience of rolling stock and the desire to attract railtours.  I think this requirement has ceased to be as important in more recent years though.

 

The non enthusiast patrons expect decent and affordable catering to be available, and modern rather than Victorian sanitary facilities.

[Northmoor]

On 15/01/2023 at 10:52, Jeremy C said:

Some of it is, certainly, but the sheer amount of training, testing and assessment that now needs to be carried out, and the corresponding data entry into whatever record keeping system is used, requires a considerable number of person-hours.

 

it all adds up to a great many person-days spent in what is essentially just administration.

 

I know you're not being flippant because you've explained the importance of the exercise and effort involved, but there are many enthusiasts who do just see this admin as "red tape" and "Health & Safety gone mad".   What they don't see is that a safety management system such as this, which demonstrates staff (paid or volunteer) competency, may result in the company's Public Liability Insurance premiums being substantially reduced or indeed, them being able to be insured at all.

[papagolfjuliet]

19 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Something of interest at each end is highly desirable, and yes, the distance isn't too important but it does have to be more than a couple of hundred yards (like some of the nascent preservation schemes), but it is essential that at least one of the stations has adequate car parking.  Big limitation for Epping-Ongar, although that does at least have the benefit of proximity to the LT network with a large potential catchment area but currently makes it reliant on the vintage bus from Epping. 

 

 

The non enthusiast patrons expect decent and affordable catering to be available, and modern rather than Victorian sanitary facilities.

 

I once saw it summed up as "Views, brews, and loos" and I think that's about right. Something nice to look at through the train windows (as opposed to rows of decomposing diesel shunters, say), a decent cup of tea for a reasonable price, and clean abundant toilets (no need to go as far as the very fancy loos on Weybourne station with their genuine Thomas Crapper crappers, but that's a good standard to aim for). 

 

Coming back to the main point there are two lines which I think are in danger of closure in the near-to-medium term - one in South Wales and one in the West Country - but in both cases that outcome would be the result of sustained mismanagement and infighting, and the present economic situation would be merely the final straw. The Llangollen's recent misfortunes can be placed in the same category.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

7 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

I once saw it summed up as "Views, brews, and loos" and I think that's about right. Something nice to look at through the train windows (as opposed to rows of decomposing diesel shunters, say).

 

I like that!

[Northmoor]

57 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I once saw it summed up as "Views, brews, and loos" and I think that's about right. Something nice to look at through the train windows (as opposed to rows of decomposing diesel shunters, say), a decent cup of tea for a reasonable price, and clean abundant toilets (no need to go as far as the very fancy loos on Weybourne station with their genuine Thomas Crapper crappers, but that's a good standard to aim for). 

 

Coming back to the main point there are two lines which I think are in danger of closure in the near-to-medium term - one in South Wales and one in the West Country - but in both cases that outcome would be the result of sustained mismanagement and infighting, and the present economic situation would be merely the final straw. The Llangollen's recent misfortunes can be placed in the same category.

Thought-provoking, it doesn't seem to be The Done Thing to publicly criticise a particular preserved railway (because it always starts bitterness) but it's hard not to start naming names even if only to yourself.  I have in mind one or two schemes that will struggle through the coming recession; sadly one of them is one I have supported for over 30 years and had it been better run, could have achieved greatly more than it has.

 

It is hard to get away from the business model that says you either need to be very small or very big to survive in railway preservation.  Small schemes with a niche "product" - perhaps a museum of a particular type of industrial railway operation displayed nowhere else - which require few or no paid staff, can manage their costs.  The largest railways have (and require) significant numbers of paid staff as well as incurring many other costs, but can always pull in enough paying customers to cover the overheads, even if during the toughest periods they are contributing little to long-term infrastructure investment and maintenance.  The latter is a time-bomb starting to hit several of the biggest railways; look at how the West Somerset has been affected by long term neglect of its infrastructure, while the NYMR is spending very big sums on replacing the last of the BR-era track on the running lines.  The Mid-Hants is also talking about the level of track renewals needed soon and the numbers are big.

 

While the adage of Right Price, Right Product, Right Place applies to any heritage railway just like any other business, it still requires good management.  Some of the (near) failures of recent years - and this is when times were good - have been down to managers spending too much money on the wrong things and not enough on the right things.  I sympathise with all of them; it must be very challenging with a workforce, the majority of whom have the option to simply walk away and never turn up again.

[Wheatley]

20 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Traditionally preservation groups saw it as important to have access 

<snip>

The non enthusiast patrons expect decent and affordable catering to be available, and modern rather than Victorian facilities. 

 

I suspect the shift in the need for rail access changed when it became considerably more expensive to move rolling stock by rail than by road. The fundamental requirement now of course is that af least one if your sites needs to be capable of accepting a very lage low loader. 

 

Every attraction my mum and dad ever visited was marked out of ten by my dad. It took mum years to work out that he was scoring the toilets and cafe, not the culrural or historical interest of whatever it was. 

 

20 hours ago, Northmoor said:

 What they don't see is that a safety management system such as this, which demonstrates staff (paid or volunteer) competency, may result in the company's Public Liability Insurance premiums being substantially reduced or indeed, them being able to be insured at all.

Not only that, without a suitable SMS they risk not being allowed to operate at all. ROGS still applies to heritage railways, albeit with some exemptions permitted at ORR's discretion. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Wheatley

[papagolfjuliet]

17 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

the NYMR is spending very big sums on replacing the last of the BR-era track on the running lines. 

 

True, although to its credit for decades the NYMR has had one of the best funded and best equipped civil engineering departments in preservation, with the line's York Area Group dedicated to the department's support in terms of fundraising, volunteer manpower, and the purchase and maintenance of kit. There is very little running line on the NYMR which has not been relaid at least once. The NYMR's problem is bridges, five of which have had to be replaced in the past few years including one in a very inaccessible location. Big infastructure items such as bridges and tunnels are going to be a major problem for a lot of lines going forward. 

The NYMR is also very good at fundraising. It launches an appeal for Item X, raises the money, spends it on Item X, and then launches an appeal for Item Y. That goes down well with grant awarding bodies and with private donors. The WSR's habit of launching regular crisis appeals without ever explaining exactly where the money is going is rather less productive, and I can think of another line which recently raised a lot of cash for a shed in which to store its unrestored heritage carriages whose GM has now announced that he wants to use that shed for something else. That sort of thing tends to dissuade me from donating to that concern again.  

Edited January 22, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[Northmoor]

@papagolfjuliet The actions of some senior heritage railway people do beggar belief.  I remember not too many years ago the GM of one of the new generation lines being reported (quite uncritically) as recommending that their railway applied for a Lottery grant.  This was for the purchase of one of the locomotives that he personally owned but the receipts from which he would use to restore his other locomotive.  At no point were the words, "Conflict of Interest" ever used!

[nathan70000]

I have been quite pleasantly surprised by the number of younger people, including both boys and girls, showing an interest at my last few visits to preserved railways. Whilst there is a lot of doom and gloom I think there is a widespread volunteer base for the future as I detect a very slight resurgence in interest in the railways. Witness the TikTok popularity of Francis Bourgeois, the numerous TV programs broadcast and purely anecdotally more photos and videos being shared on social media platforms like Instagram and Facebook.

 

On the other hand I do think there is so much pressure on young people's time that many would find volunteering quite difficult, especially when many railways are in isolated rural areas away from major cities. Railways with good public transport connections close to major cities and towns might have an advantage in this regard; the Great Central, Nene Valley, and the Severn Valley are all fairly easy to get to.

[Tumut]

On 14/01/2023 at 18:14, rogerzilla said:

There are issues with modern buildings and one bridge but the local council is supportive of a southern extension of GWSR to Cheltenham town, so it cam take race day traffic to the existing Race Course station.

Hello All, I would have thought that Race traffic potential would be marginal, on the basis that ( I presume ) Cheltenham Racecourse with 16 race meets per annum leaves 349 days without races, attendance at Race days has been in slow decline for years ( which is why the 24/7 railways stopped running race specials ) and mug punters can watch the races, in close up, down the local. Having said that, the GWSR extension to Cheltenham will allow for greater tourism traffic, which should be of benefit. Regards, Tumut

 

[rogerzilla]

I think the council were thinking mainly of the Cheltenham Festival, when the town and its roads are besieged by half the population of Ireland (it always coincides with St Paddy's Day, you see).