What does the future hold for preserved railways?

[Tumut]

Hello All,   re the NYMR comments raises an interesting observation. The lack of consistent quality track maintenance leads  to all sorts of potentially very expensive problems, poor track causes increasing wear and tear on the trains, leads to an uncomfortable ride ( there are some experiences of the past that need avoiding, this being one of them ) and ends up being a vicious, downward spiral of increasing costs. All railways, without exception, must understand that a deteriorating PerWay is the root of all ballooning operating costs. PW is not something that the general public take much notice of, but many Big railways have gone under for neglecting their PW.

                     SMS / Safety Management Systems, which these days should all be computer based, and assessable to all who need to know, are the difference between being able to insure and operated a safe railway, or not. This is the way of the modern world, especially for preserved railways which are primarily volunteer run and usually require a large number of qualified people to run a small railway where volunteers have limited availability.

                      I am well aware that many people mock H&S, which in some cases may be a valid criticism, but, the absolute last thing a preserved railway needs is a serious injury, or a fatality, especially if it can be proved that some negligence was the responsibility of the railway ( a solicitor friend who does Employer Compensation cases assures me that this is usually the case ). Having to front up to the Coroner's Court to please explain is not a desirable outcome. On that note, I do wonder why so many preserved railways offerSteam Footplate Experience Events, as a boiler firebox blow back is not unknown with steam locomotives.

                       Young peoples experience on a preserved railway can be a stepping stone to a railway career, and some preserved railways ( Ffestiniog ) deliberately structure their volunteer intake and training to accomodate this. Similar arrangements for skilled engineering trades is also done by some preserved railways. These sorts of programmes that have relevance outside of the preserved railway will help preserved railways survive, Regards, Tumut.

[eldomtom2]

40 minutes ago, Tumut said:

On that note, I do wonder why so many preserved railways offerSteam Footplate Experience Events, as a boiler firebox blow back is not unknown with steam locomotives.

Do you have any actual evidence that the railways that offer such experiences have not assessed the risk of them?

[melmoth]

4 hours ago, Tumut said:

On that note, I do wonder why so many preserved railways offerSteam Footplate Experience Events, as a boiler firebox blow back is not unknown with steam locomotives.

                       

 

You are obviously correct in this. From the benefit of your experience of working with steam locomotives, could you tell us what the significant variables in the condition of a locomotive and the circumstances of its operation are, which may or not increase or decrease the likelihood of such an event?

[papagolfjuliet]

14 hours ago, Tumut said:

 

                       Young peoples experience on a preserved railway can be a stepping stone to a railway career, and some preserved railways ( Ffestiniog ) deliberately structure their volunteer intake and training to accomodate this. 

 

And indeed the FfR has a dedicated steam engine - Lilla - whose primary role is the training of young volunteers.

 

Note that one of the NYMR's recent fundraising successes included a big wad of money for an apprenticeship programme.

Edited January 24, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[rogerzilla]

11 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

You are obviously correct in this. From the benefit of your experience of working with steam locomotives, could you tell us what the significant variables in the condition of a locomotive and the circumstances of its operation are, which may or not increase or decrease the likelihood of such an event?

It's anything that abruptly reduces the draught.  Tunnels, low bridges, or suddenly closing the regulator.  All of these should mean the blower goes on first.  A perforated superheater element at the firebox end is the one you can't predict when driving, but that's what boiler inspections are for.

[Wheatley]

Mention of NYMR P.Way reminds me of an article in a recent 'Moors Line'. The completion of track laying in the new  carriage  shed  required the hiring of a tamper and crew from one of the infrastructure  companies for a weekend.

 

Without digging the magazine out to read it again, they turned up with some brand new Gucci piece of kit still with the plastic on the seats so after the contracted job was done the operators  had a  bit of a play with it. The result is  that the Long Siding from Pickering to the Carriage Stable is  technically fit for 90mph running.  

Edited January 24, 2023 by Wheatley

[Nick C]

47 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Mention of NYMR P.Way reminds me of an article in a recent 'Moors Line'. The completion of track laying in the new  carriage  shed  required the hiring of a tamper and crew from one of the infrastructure  companies for a weekend.

 

Without digging the magazine out to read it again, they turned up with some brand new Gucci piece of kit still with the plastic on the seats so after the contracted job was done the operators  had a  bit of a play with it. The result is  that the Long Siding from Pickering to the Carriage Stable is  technically fit for 90mph running.  

Operator training for such machines has become quite an important revenue stream for several heritage railways - to the extent that the Bluebell are building (or have built) a dedicated training centre. It's a win for everyone involved - the operator gets a dedicated place to operate without having to worry about possessions, other work going on etc, and the HR gets some money, and their track tamped for free!

[Ben B]

On 21/01/2023 at 15:39, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Something of interest at each end is highly desirable, and yes, the distance isn't too important but it does have to be more than a couple of hundred yards (like some of the nascent preservation schemes), but it is essential that at least one of the stations has adequate car parking.  Big limitation for Epping-Ongar, although that does at least have the benefit of proximity to the LT network with a large potential catchment area but currently makes it reliant on the vintage bus from Epping. 

 

Traditionally preservation groups saw it as important to have access (which in practice was usually feasible future access after completion of an unbuilt extension) to the BR system, partly because a small but vocal minority of enthusiasts who didn't drive and wouldn't travel other than by rail, perhaps more for convenience of rolling stock and the desire to attract railtours.  I think this requirement has ceased to be as important in more recent years though.

 

 

This is actually something that occured to me in the summer when in the Aberyswyth area; when I was a kid, we went on the Vale of Rheidol which at that time was right over the platform from British Rail.

 

Going back there in 2022, their new station is a bit of a walk out of town and away from the mainline station, but handy for three very large car parks. I'd doubt with the relatively sparse service of 2-car DMU's many VoR passengers arrive from the West Mids by rail these days compared to the 70's and 80's, and clearly the VoR have decided stopping next to the 158's is less of a priority in this day and age. That said, the VoR trains were busy, and many seemed to do what we did on a visit to Devils Bridge later in the week; park there in the railway pay & display, not ride the trains, but have lunch in the cafe, spend money in the shop, and in our case, pay a tenner each for the kids to have a cab ride on the quarry hunslet. All still income of course, and I wonder how much the Ffestiniog makes doing the same with their station cafe at Tanybwlch? There always seems to be customers there between trains in the high season.

 

Interestingly my local line, the KWVR still seems to do well for mainline passenges, but then it's in an urban area, the electric suburbans are every 15 mins, and all-day parking in Keighley is a swine... and the Worth Valley makes a fair bit of their mainline connection too, they had a train in for a filming contract only last week.

[Wheatley]

4 hours ago, Ben B said:

Interestingly my local line, the KWVR still seems to do well for mainline passenges, but then it's in an urban area, the electric suburbans are every 15 mins, and all-day parking in Keighley is a swine... and the Worth Valley makes a fair bit of their mainline connection too, they had a train in for a filming contract only last week.

We drive because we only live over the hill, so we either either park at Ingrow or dump the car at Crossflatts one stop down the main line. Ingrow  allows  you to sample the  delights of the Keighley sort-of-a-half-hearted-attempt-at-a-one-way-(ish)-system  as well :-)

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Wheatley

[Michael Hodgson]

On 22/01/2023 at 12:51, Northmoor said:

@papagolfjuliet The actions of some senior heritage railway people do beggar belief.  I remember not too many years ago the GM of one of the new generation lines being reported (quite uncritically) as recommending that their railway applied for a Lottery grant.  This was for the purchase of one of the locomotives that he personally owned but the receipts from which he would use to restore his other locomotive.  At no point were the words, "Conflict of Interest" ever used!

Indeed, but it's not just preserved railways that suffer such abuses.  It's all too common in coroporate management, and I can't remember a time when there wasn't one politician or another being accused of having his fingers in the till.  The fact that one might approve of his intended use for ill-gotten gains doesn't justify the manner in which the money is to be obtained.

 

It is down to the Lottery authorities to do what they can to turn down such applications for funding.  It's the job of company directors to prevent their fellow board members from abusing their positions for personal gain, and trustees in the case of the voluntary sector.  But they are often not in possession of the information necessary to prevent such problems.

 

It seems to be human nature, as corruption among those in high places is by no means confined to this country.

[Hal Nail]

The wider issue facing heritage railways is it is no longer cost effective to run steam trains, without hiking prices to levels an average family probably can't afford. Passenger numbers are already declining and costs have increased to the point even established lines are trading at a loss, which clearly can't be sustained. In a way Covid masked this as grants and support schemes helped but these have now finished.

 

Whether there is sufficient interest outside the older generation to justify this I dont know but if it is deemed in the national interest for steam railways to continue, perhaps a subsidy of some sort (eg from Lottery funding) is needed.

 

I think that would inevitably be aimed at a smaller number of lines than exist at present though.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Hal Nail
typo

[Phil Bullock]

Let alone the huge challenges arising over the last two years … railways can do without these issues .

 

Fire at Gwili railway workshops ..

 

 Gwili fire

 

I know I shall be attending as many railways as often as I can this summer…

[bodmin16]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

The wider issue facing heritage railways is it is no longer cost effective to run steam trains, without hiking prices to levels an average family probably can't afford. Passenger numbers are already declining and costs have increased to the point even established lines are trading at a loss, which clearly can't be sustained. In a way Covid masked this as grants and support schemes helped but these have now finished.

 

Whether there is sufficient interest outside the older generation to justify this I dont know but if it is deemed in the national interest for steam railways to continue, perhaps a subsidy of some sort (eg from Lottery funding) is needed.

 

I think that would inevitably be aimed at a smaller number of lines than exist at present though.

 

Rather than a reliance on subsidies does the preservation movement need to do more in trying to draw more people in and ask some tough questions of itself?  What some avid enthusiasts want is not necessarily what some of the more casual enthusiasts and/or visitors want.

 

I realise that there will be different answers depending on who asks the questions, and others may ask similar or further questions, but some of the questions I ask myself before going to a preservation scheme are as follows:

 

Do I want to travel a great distance to travel in a mark 1 behind a particular class of loco when I can do very similar closer to home?

Do I travel further for something different e.g. big four or pre-coaching stock behind something unique?

Do I want to spend all day on a train or do I expect to see something else, i.e. is the line too long, will I see loads of rusting hulks or a nicely presented museum?  

What will my welcome be like?

How would somebody coming with me, who is less enthusiastic than me, answer these questions and what would they expect?

 

Unfortunately I think that some of the larger organisations have more to loose, in my experience some of the smaller organisations are more focussed in their presentation and are able to adapt more to meet both the needs of the visiting public and their preservation aims.  Additionally it is often the case that any increase in running costs is disproportionately higher than any returns.  It would appear from my observations and some of the posts here that we may lose a couple in the not too distant future unless something is done quick, and of course like all business, when one company goes the others that survive will pick up the customers from the failed businesses since most failures are the result of not enough custom rather than no custom at all.

 

 

[woodenhead]

The problem is people our age want to preserve their past, so at the moment steam trains (and BR diesels) are popular - it's what we remember.  Some railways take that a step further and focus on what came before BR even and that's great.

 

But in wanting to keep these steam railways alive we are not asking the right question, it's not what we want, it's what our children's children would want because they will be the beneficiaries after we are long dead and buried/burnt.

 

Are we looking at this whole thing from a selfish perspective, because looking at my own children, neither of them have any priorities in life that touch on a working steam engine on a preserved line.  And we look at this situation they find themselves in with a massively changing economic landscape and wonder, what will it be like for their children.  Then working steam and diesel preservation look very unimportant indeed.

[Northmoor]

6 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The problem is people our age want to preserve their past, so at the moment steam trains (and BR diesels) are popular - it's what we remember.  Some railways take that a step further and focus on what came before BR even and that's great.

 

But in wanting to keep these steam railways alive we are not asking the right question, it's not what we want, it's what our children's children would want because they will be the beneficiaries after we are long dead and buried/burnt.

 

Are we looking at this whole thing from a selfish perspective, because looking at my own children, neither of them have any priorities in life that touch on a working steam engine on a preserved line.  And we look at this situation they find themselves in with a massively changing economic landscape and wonder, what will it be like for their children.  Then working steam and diesel preservation look very unimportant indeed.

Totally agree, which is why it hurts to admit it but the most successful railway are run by the best managers who understand these issues, not the biggest enthusiasts who operate the railway they want to run.  Obviously it helps a great deal to be an enthusiast as well as you have to motivate volunteers and paid staff that you share their interests, even if not their priorities.  Too many railways are chasing the same market (enthusiasts through galas) instead of trying to attract new markets; I remember reading how the Midland Railway Centre was hosting a music festival.  How many of those visitors would have come to the railway otherwise?  I would never have predicted it but it is notable that many of the bigger railways are reporting much more growth in attendance at special events than on ordinary operating days.

 

Enthusiasts may have to start to accept some sacred cows as never before.  In a shrunken heritage railway industry, there simply won't be the demand for so many locomotives.  Look at the outcry when one of the Barry Ten has been "sacrificed" - although in every case the locos concerned are well-duplicated in preservation -  but how many unique industrial locomotive designs (and all sorts of carriages and wagons) have been lost without any such outcry because so many enthusiasts don't see them as real locomotives.

[Michael Hodgson]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The problem is people our age want to preserve their past, so at the moment steam trains (and BR diesels) are popular - it's what we remember.  Some railways take that a step further and focus on what came before BR even and that's great.

 

As a boy I visited the Science Museum on a school trip from Cheshire.  The railways formed an important part of the collection, notably the signalling exhibits.  These were of interest to most kids at the time, many of whom wanted to be a train driver when they grew up.  Nowadays however, children are unfamiliar with working railways.  Boys no longer have ambitions to be a train driver and trainspotters are no longer to be seen on every platform or overbridge.  Children don't see a station in every village in the land, and they travel everywhere by car and even for those who live near a railway everyday steam has gone - so to the kids a steam railway just means the odd day out at Thomas events. 

 

So the exhibits gradually ceased to appeal to more recent generations of children, and the curators of the Science Museum decided to dispose of historic exhibits that were now being generally ignored.  Fortunately John Jolly saved most of them and they are now exhibited at Mangapps Farm.

[Bucoops]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

As a boy I visited the Science Museum on a school trip from Cheshire.  The railways formed an important part of the collection, notably the signalling exhibits.  These were of interest to most kids at the time, many of whom wanted to be a train driver when they grew up.  Nowadays however, children are unfamiliar with working railways.  Boys no longer have ambitions to be a train driver and trainspotters are no longer to be seen on every platform or overbridge.  Children don't see a station in every village in the land, and they travel everywhere by car and even for those who live near a railway everyday steam has gone - so to the kids a steam railway just means the odd day out at Thomas events. 

 

So the exhibits gradually ceased to appeal to more recent generations of children, and the curators of the Science Museum decided to dispose of historic exhibits that were now being generally ignored.  Fortunately John Jolly saved most of them and they are now exhibited at Mangapps Farm.

 

I missed out helping "raid" the Science Museum with the Mangapps gang by a week - I was at uni at the time. I reckon it would have been great fun!

 

However saved is probably the wrong word - John was given first refusal, I am sure anything not taken would have been offered elsewhere.

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Bucoops

[Reorte]

I don't entirely accept the "it's about nostalgia for what we remember when we were young." If that was the case then I'd only go to them when blue diesels are running (and I admit that I do have a bit of nostalgia for them simply because that was what was around when I was a child). But I want to see steam, even though main line steam had finished several years before I was born. It's just what I like. And some decent semaphore signalling.

 

Admittedly I'm quite probably not the norm for my age group, but whenever I do go I certainly don't only see people older than myself. And there are all sorts of museums and tourist attractions up and down the country that cover a time before anyone alive can remember.

 

Nostalgia plays a part, true, but it's most certainly not the only one.

[RichardT]

You can stand around wondering what heritage railways can do to appeal to younger generations, or you could get them involved: https://nymr.link/2ma

 

RT

Edited January 27, 2023 by RichardT
Correct link

[Reorte]

Talking of younger generations on heritage lines I found it quite interesting when, several years ago, I was on a train on the East Lancs. A group of I'd guess early twenties got on the train. They were amazed when it started moving with barely a sound (until it got a bit above walking pace anyway, but Mk1s do seem to have a nice quiet ride below 4 mph!)

[adb968008]

On 13/01/2023 at 10:48, Reorte said:

We should always remember that the current state of costs etc. won't last forever. Economies go in cycles, there are ups and downs and we're definitely in a down right now, but there's no reason to believe it's this forevermore. Sadly there will be some that won't survive this patch, but it will just be a patch.

Weve been in a down since 2008, with the odd dead cat bounce.

 

Austerity, Brexit, Covid and now somewhat a localised Depression.

 

 

[adb968008]

On 13/01/2023 at 15:17, Steamport Southport said:

 

Now we are spending millions building new locomotives.

1 locomotive, and that was over a decade ago.

 

None of the other new builds have gotten over the line. Closest was 2999 as a rebuild.

 

But look back since the 1T57 re- run in 2008, much what we had was lost off the mainline by 2013.. which I suspect was the hobbies peak years. 

 

Many lines have sensibly consolidated their ops, fleets or premises and walked back ambitions and matured to the longer term. Others have relied on volunteers and sized accordingly.

 

We are already seeing some failures of quite historic items, LMS Sleepers went for scrap, 7027 looks to be broken up, Churnet Valley closed and ripped up much of its line. Its not a critiscm, but a realism.

 

Many projects have simply slowed to a crawl, the phrase “it’ll be ready when its ready”. Inflation is a big part of this… days gone groups were selling books, magazines etc and refurbing items by volunteers. Some overhauls were costing £30-100k over a decade. No book or magazine stand is going to raise the £500k -£1mn cost of an overhaul today.

 

Looking at modern image theres a general acceptance that EMU preservation is a non-starter and beyond ambition, and that AC traction exists only because of one benefactor, indeed much of the future of mainline steam is centred around that same cauldron of funding, and has in the last 5 years only maintained status quo, rather than restore more to that core working fleet.

 

Similarly whilst steam preservation was famed for making lost parts, on the diesel side seems to be slowly eating its remaining resources and shrinking the pool.. Carnforth is currently cutting class 47’s withdrawn 20 years ago…. Could you imagine the noise if Black 5’s were being scrapped in 1988 ?.. back then we were repatriating steam from overseas.

 

I spent much time in the 2000’s decade chasing mainline steam until the regulators over ran it. Ive spent much of the 2010’s decade following preserved railways. I think much of the 2020’s will be watching the consolidation of railways.

 

You have to even wonder the future of IEP construction, what happens after the 2019 orders of Class 805 / 807 for EMR and Avanti complete ?

Whats interesting is the constant…

Most of the UKs rolling stock is under 25 years old. I’d argue most of Europes rolling stock is over 25 years old. European railways really havent evolved that much since 2000. Loco hauled is still very prevalent, some rolling stock is 1960’s. Some newer units have arrived, as has a couple of high speed lines and stock. But the trend to loco hauled trend remains, whikst a thousand or so new locos have been built in Europe for the most part things have remained the same and its just been renewal. Much is true about preservation in Europe which too has been fairly consistent… the UK has been on a considerable rising curve for much of the last 30 years, preservation started to decline imo around 2013, and our national networks since covid. My guess is we will consolidate and Europe will enter the renewal phase that we've just completed.
 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by adb968008

[Nick C]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

1 locomotive, and that was over a decade ago.

 

None of the other new builds have gotten over the line. Closest was 2999 as a rebuild.

I can think of at least three new-build steam locomotives that have entered traffic on UK heritage railways since Tornado, and a couple more that are close...

[RichardT]

6 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I can think of at least three new-build steam locomotives that have entered traffic on UK heritage railways since Tornado, and a couple more that are close...

I’m intrigued - what are they?  
 

The only genuine new builds (as opposed to kit-bashing from existing components, like all the GWR projects) I can bring to mind that have ben completed or have a realistic chance of completion in the next 24 months are “Tornado”, “Prince of Wales” and the NER G5 group.  There are a couple of other new build projects that seem perpetually to be going round in circles (the B17 and the Patriot), but my information on those is probably out of date.  Many of the rest seem to be fantasies. (If you haven’t got a boiler built, or the funding plan securely in place for a boiler, the project is a fantasy, no matter how many pictures of wheels, frames and smokeboxes you release to the preservation press.)

 

Richard

[Nick C]

1 minute ago, RichardT said:

I’m intrigued - what are they?  
 

The only genuine new builds (as opposed to kit-bashing from existing components, like all the GWR projects) I can bring to mind that have ben completed or have a realistic chance of completion in the next 24 months are “Tornado”, “Prince of Wales” and the NER G5 group.  There are a couple of other new build projects that seem perpetually to be going round in circles (the B17 and the Patriot), but my information on those is probably out of date.  Many of the rest seem to be fantasies. (If you haven’t got a boiler built, or the funding plan securely in place for a boiler, the project is a fantasy, no matter how many pictures of wheels, frames and smokeboxes you release to the preservation press.)

 

Richard

L&B Lyd (2010) & Lyn (2017), and Corris No 7 (2005 - actually checking dates, that was before Tornado).

 

The Bluebell's H2 is fairly close - boiler fitted to the frames last August, they reckon about another 12 months or so, so maybe mid-24, and Corris No 10 was demonstrated in steam in September and should be in service this year.

 

The locomotive portion of GWR 92 was also new, though the carriage part was a restoration.