1968 Hawker Hunter Tower Bridge Incident

[jjb1970]

I think 14 is more likely the maximum that the army is willing to let go. It's still a massive logistic tail for not a lot of tanks.

[RJS1977]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

The best solution would be if they could find a supply of Soviet tanks (T-64, T-72, T-80 or T-90), the Ukrainians would find them a lot easier to support and operate and the crews are already familiar with them. However as I understand it any Soviet/Russian designs which were available have already been bought or donated and sent.

 

I think there are still some about - there's the famous one pointing at a Council office in South London, although that's probably pretty derelict by now. And a relative of mine who runs Capel Military Show has at least one T-series tank in working order.

[RJS1977]

3 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

I would suspect that has already happened, given that the numbers of Ukrainian military passing through the UK for training. The tanks will most likely turn up complete with fully trained Ukrainian crews. 

 

 

I read an article earlier this week where a Ukranian official had said they needed to be sent tanks by Friday (i.e. today) in order to give the Ukrainians twelve weeks training time before a possible Russian spring onslaught.

[ejstubbs]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

The best solution would be if they could find a supply of Soviet tanks (T-64, T-72, T-80 or T-90)

 

There's a couple of T34s in Berlin sitting around not doing much, if that's any help?

 

[Bernard Lamb]

37 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

I think there are still some about - there's the famous one pointing at a Council office in South London, although that's probably pretty derelict by now. And a relative of mine who runs Capel Military Show has at least one T-series tank in working order.

Gone AWOL the last time I passed that way.

Bernard

[ejstubbs]

On 18/01/2023 at 12:37, whart57 said:

There is a Hawker Hunter mounted on a stick at the entrance to the former Ford airfield in Sussex

 

It's my understanding that many if not all of such gate guardian aircraft are glass fibre replicas nowadays (I think this was mentioned in the Airfix episode of James May's Toy Story).  The original aircraft don't stand up well to being stuck up on a pole in all weathers, and can be vulnerable to vandalism and even theft (though I can't help thinking that you'd have to be pretty sneaky and/or foolhardy to try something like that outside a military facility).

[Jonboy]

Mind you even the replicas still have to cope with the rules of physics:

 

https://www.heraldseries.co.uk/news/19941326.future-grove-business-park-plane-remains-uncertain/

 

Local rumour’s believe it to be a botched repair to the concrete base vs lift force from the wings…

Edited January 20, 2023 by Jonboy

[MarkC]

8 hours ago, Jonboy said:

Mind you even the replicas still have to cope with the rules of physics:

 

https://www.heraldseries.co.uk/news/19941326.future-grove-business-park-plane-remains-uncertain/

 

Local rumour’s believe it to be a botched repair to the concrete base vs lift force from the wings…

Oops...

[ejstubbs]

12 hours ago, Jonboy said:

Mind you even the replicas still have to cope with the rules of physics

 

But at least it's not a genuine historic aircraft that gets trashed in bad weather.  ('d hope that the genuine ones that get replaced by replicas go into museums, or at least into secure storage awaiting conservation.)

[whart57]

Re: the tanks. It seems to be overlooked occasionally that NATO is not actually at war with Russia and that Ukraine is not and never has been a member of NATO or had a mutual defence treaty with NATO. Nearly everyone wants to keep it that way, and Biden and Scholtz especially so. Scholtz because the Germans would be the main provider of European land forces and Biden because the Americans would end up being the ones making all the hard decisions.

 

The only tanks that are any use to the Ukrainians are the German-built Leopards, either direct from Germany or from other users like Poland. The British government has been playing a peculiar role here. While for Biden, Scholtz and Macron the politics are that they all see the need to support Ukraine to the hilt, they all face domestic political opponents who don't accept that and none of the three are likely to win political support through supporting Ukraine. In Britain however, Boris Johnson made a big thing of flying out to meet Zelenskiy every time he was in domestic political trouble, Liz Truss' Instagram was groaning under the pictures of her in tanks or with pilots and while Sunak is less gung-ho, his Defence Secretary is still on a loose rein when it comes to showing Britain is backing the Ukrainians.

 

Now Britain can't offer Leopards, they don't have any. So they have to offer the tanks they have, Challengers. Logistically though that would be a nightmare for the Ukrainian generals. The best use for these would be to backfill the Leopards a small army like the Estonians are proposing to supply Ukraine with.

 

In the end it comes down to politics. Biden and Scholtz are wary about provoking Putin into expanding the war. It's not just Putin himself, it's the chain of command under him as well as the families of the conscripts being called up to fill the Russian ranks. Providing the Ukrainians with defensive weaponry is hard to depict as NATO threatening Russia. A tank however is an offensive weapon, so supplying them crosses a line. It comes down to Scholtz. It does not seem to be an issue about money, the Germans are spending billions already on restructuring their energy supplies as well as providing less aggressive military equipment, but it does look like Scholtz not wanting to be the guy who tipped Putin over the edge. Particularly as a lot of the Leopards are in store or in bits and are unlikely to reach Ukraine in time for any spring push. The offer of unsuitable tanks from Britain and the call for the Americans to supply similarly unsuitable Adams tanks is aimed at making Scholtz feel less alone. We'll find out in a week or so whether that works.

[MyRule1]

16 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

It's my understanding that many if not all of such gate guardian aircraft are glass fibre replicas nowadays (I think this was mentioned in the Airfix episode of James May's Toy Story).  The original aircraft don't stand up well to being stuck up on a pole in all weathers, and can be vulnerable to vandalism and even theft (though I can't help thinking that you'd have to be pretty sneaky and/or foolhardy to try something like that outside a military facility).

Is it not as much to do with economics as anything else. Once upon a time many of the Spitfires and Hurricanes that existed as gate guardians were original. Then if was found that the costs of a fibre glass replica was somewhat lower than the market value of the original.

 

The F100 at RAF Lakenheath seems ok after many years on a plinth.

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

Looks like Russian trolls are already claiming Challenger kills online, even before the things have actually been delivered. 

[Michael Hodgson]

18 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

I read an article earlier this week where a Ukranian official had said they needed to be sent tanks by Friday (i.e. today) in order to give the Ukrainians twelve weeks training time before a possible Russian spring onslaught.

He's right.  They need them yesterday.

[Michael Hodgson]

17 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

It's my understanding that many if not all of such gate guardian aircraft are glass fibre replicas nowadays (I think this was mentioned in the Airfix episode of James May's Toy Story).  The original aircraft don't stand up well to being stuck up on a pole in all weathers, and can be vulnerable to vandalism and even theft (though I can't help thinking that you'd have to be pretty sneaky and/or foolhardy to try something like that outside a military facility).

https://www.britairliners.org/airliners-article?title=changing-the-guard&id=3

[Michael Hodgson]

53 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Liz Truss' Instagram was groaning under the pictures of her in tanks or with pilots and while Sunak is less gung-ho, his Defence Secretary is still on a loose rein when it comes to showing Britain is backing the Ukrainians.

 

The reason she got Boris's job when the vacany first arose was that she was astute enough to recognize that the party faithful all still worshipped Thatcher as their inspiration, so to win the party leadership all she had to do was to emulate somebody who had once found it was useful her campaigns to be seen in a tank, whereas our present glorious leader was merely campaiging on what he thought would make good policy in the current situation.  The world has moved on and whilst not many still remember Churchill who the previous generation of Tories had worshipped (and who also had a tank named after him), if they are to have a future the party still needs to relegate the blessed Margaret to history where she belongs - just as Labour had to get rid of the outdated Socialist image personified in Corbyn.  Not that either of the major parties is popular enough to win an outright majority if an election were held right now.

[RJS1977]

2 hours ago, MyRule1 said:

Is it not as much to do with economics as anything else. Once upon a time many of the Spitfires and Hurricanes that existed as gate guardians were original. Then if was found that the costs of a fibre glass replica was somewhat lower than the market value of the original.

 

The F100 at RAF Lakenheath seems ok after many years on a plinth.

 

 

Similarly, until its closure last year, the most recent gate guardian at Scampton was a retired Red Arrows Hawk (not a fibreglass replica!).

 

That said, I can't help thinking Scampton would have been better having a fibreglass replica of one of their previous gate guardians rather than the real thing - a live Grand Slam bomb!

[geoffers]

Pretty sure the Jaguar Gate Guardian at RAF Coltishall was fibreglass and 2/3 size. It has since retreated to Norfolk County Council's County Hall on the edge of Norwich. Plenty of Jags still around in museums though including several at RAF Cosford, whilst one GR1A is doing fast taxi runs at the Cold War Museum at Bentwaters. One memorable trip in a Jag was when I was invited to fly the Jag Simulator. That was fun even though they fired missiles at me (was met forecaster). but managed to get chaff out.  Took off from RAF Valley, flew under the Menai Bridge, was given thunderstorms and severe turbulence to deal with (asked for these to give me an idea of reality when forecasting them). Stalled it on approach to landing unfortunately and crash landed. 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, geoffers said:

Stalled it on approach to landing unfortunately and crash landed. 

 

There's a lot to be said for simulators!