On the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, or, Club 1830

[sir douglas]

Very similar to the london & Birmingham wagon that Parlytrains do a kit for in O gauge

https://www.parlytrains.co.uk/page7.html

Edited July 4, 2023 by sir douglas

[Victorian]

10 hours ago, sir douglas said:

Very similar to the london & Birmingham wagon that Parlytrains do a kit for in O gauge

 

Yes, it's from the same source.

[Edwardian]

15 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

It's hard  to know at this distance in time. The best reference to train make up is Wishaw, 'Railways of Great Britain and Ireland' (1842), which shows a similar 'Ballast Wagon' on the Bitrmingham and Gloucester. Quite plausibly they remained in service after construction.

 

The wagons are drawn in S C Brees, 'Railway Practice' (1836) as running on the L&BR but I dont know if this is the design adopted by Hornby.

 

 

Here's my interpretation of Brees in G1, printed one piece in SLS Nylon:

 

 

 

That is a really lovely model.

 

[Victorian]

Thank you!

 

This is the Birmingham & Gloucester ballast wagon illustrated in Wishaw:

 

 

I'm not sure why I said the sides are 'removable' since those are plainly hinges! Sometimes modelling in 3D brings out aspects that are not so obvious in 2D.

 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

Thank you!

 

This is the Birmingham & Gloucester ballast wagon illustrated in Wishaw:

 

 

I'm not sure why I said the sides are 'removable' since those are plainly hinges! Sometimes modelling in 3D brings out aspects that are not so obvious in 2D.

 

 

Have Wishaw, so will have a look 

 

So far, have concentrated on the L&M in the early 'thirties, which, faced with very many "how to do X" questions, seems to have lighted upon what one might call The Adaptable Flat-bed' for general merchandise needs.

 

You can put anything on a flat-bed. Generally this is the roped load itself, but it appears to extend to (a) fitting 'hurdles' or railings into a series of holes for loads that need fencing in. The Ackermann goods trains show a load of sacks carried this way, and (b) placing a box, like an open conflat container. 

 

Coal wagons we have seen what may be a L&M design, to take coals to the Liverpool market, as well as what are the collieries' own chaldron-type floor discharge wagons which I guess were devised for unloading into shops on the Mersey and also worked for coal drops at Manchester.

 

Quite what ballast wagons were used, I cannot say, but the L&BR design is a profoundly logical design. 

[Caley Jim]

Didn't know the shops in Liverpool got their coal dropped in directly from the L&M!  😁

 

Jim

[Edwardian]

While few details seem clear to me at this poor resolution, I do seem to see a pronounced gap between the headstock and the wagon body.

 

That suggests to me that these ballast wagons my be tipplers!

 

[Victorian]

Brees does illustrate various tipplers:

 

 

But I'm not sure any of these were for locomotive working.

 

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

Brees does illustrate various tipplers:

 

 

But I'm not sure any of these were for locomotive working.

 

 

Yes, they look like they are intended for construction work, like those in the Camden engraving.

 

Very nice, though!

 

I would expect a ballast wagon of the period to be just as the example you gave, with the drop sides, as with all its descendants.

[Victorian]

I suppose for tipplers we tend to think 'Ship Canal' wagons, which were presumably much beefier than the ones in Brees. I actually remember a siding full of them in Wellingborough before they were pushed into an old pit and set on fire to recover the metal. 

 

Are there any modern models of these, or even drawings? They'd make an interesting 3D subject. I do have the Seaham chauldrons in 3D, G1 10mm scale, 1 piece SLS print:

 

[PaulRhB]

On 04/07/2023 at 21:44, Hroth said:

 

So the set supplied with "Tiger" are more suited for a contractors loco on a railway being built, not in revenue service on the actual railway?

The wagons in the set more closely match this engraving of Rocket pulling tours of the works just before opening at Olive Mount cutting. So yes it appears they may possibly have been contractors wagons of a similar design to the ones used for the tenders. Further during the trials it’s recorded that Stephenson did demonstration runs with one of the test wagons up and down Whiston incline. So these test wagons may then have been in use as construction wagons too. Whether they moved into operational stock isn’t recorded but they could have been used initially until more stock arrived then sold off to local mines as Rocket was later. 
 

 

Source - Stephenson’s Rocket and the Rainhill trials, Richard Gibbon. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by PaulRhB

[Compound2632]

But who designed and built any wagons used by the contractors? (And who were the contractors for the L&M?) What happened to any such wagons? Taken into L&M stock? The country was not then immediately awash with new railway contracts. Or did the contractors continue to be responsible for maintenance of the line for a period after opening?

Edited July 6, 2023 by Compound2632

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But who designed and built any wagons used by the contractors? (And who were the contractors for the L&M?) What happened to any such wagons? Taken into L&M stock? The country was not then immediately awash with new railway contracts. Or did the contractors continue to be responsible for maintenance of the line for a period after opening?

The whole thing was a big experiment in the early days. There were no centralised loco facilities, no clear idea of what traffic would prosper and the best way to carry it. Many wagons were probably adapted or rebuilt using even just the metal parts in local shops to try out different ideas. While there were no huge amounts of new works for contractors stock to go to there were many industrial lines that needed to repair and replace stock from wear and accidents so I suspect the stock was already technically paid for from the contract and any sold on was a bonus. 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, PaulRhB said:

There were no centralised loco facilities, 

 

Although the Crown Street, Liverpool, carriage and wagon works were established in 1828, under T.C. Worsdell as Superintendent of Coaching. [G. Hill, The Worsdells A Quaker Engineering Dynasty (Transport Publishing Co., 1991) pp. 24-25.]

[Schooner]

On 04/07/2023 at 22:39, sir douglas said:

Parlytrains do a kit for in O gauge

And 5&9 in 4mm

https://www.5and9models.co.uk/wagons.html

 

Website increasingly obsolete, will attach recent catalogue when home.

 

 

[Victorian]

To answer my own question, I discovered at G1 North that David Mills (Sixteen Mills) does an excellent kit for G1:

 

 

Notice the 'grainy timber' effect on the baulks, which are actually laser cut MDF. Altogether a very pleasing results. David does several other tippers as well. See http://www.sixteenmills.co.uk/

 

[geoff_nicholls]

I built four wagons from the Brees drawings in gauge 3, by adapting Victorian's method of 3D printing.