On the Liverpool & Manchester Railway, or, Club 1830

[Hroth]

33 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Looks a bit nose heavy to me, presumably the way the image was copied.

Would have ridden like a bucking bronco.

Inside cylinders and a crank axle = probably difficult to build in the period.

 

 

Going by the curve of the rail "line" its just a copying artefact.

 

Its a "Patentee" layout, derived from the Stephenson "Planet"  2-2-0 which also had inside cylinders and a crank axle, which is what Edwardians ghostly loco is!  I should imagine Stephensons had the crank axle sussed, and their copiers would do their best...

 

[corneliuslundie]

I hope he didn't wave his pitchfork around.

Jonathan

[rocor]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

There's something magic about that translucent material.  Be a shame to paint it.

 

 

Mount some LEDs inside it, run it in the dark, and you have the makings of a ghost train.

[Hroth]

On 19/01/2023 at 14:20, Edwardian said:

 

Thanks for the tip, I hadn't come across this.

 

I have been relying upon:

 

 

Also useful:

 

 

 

An attractive locomotive, though not one that seems to have done particularly well for either of her owners:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would have referred to "Coloured Views" too, but I couldn't remember where I had shelved it!

 

Like the look of the other books, though I do have a copy of Early Railways for Modellers!

 

[phil_sutters]

The vehicles I find oddest are the ones on the second row down with two compartments. It looks as if the passengers have been loaded into containers that have been  hoisted onto flat wagons! The passenger carriages seem to have a shorter wheelbase to length ratio compared with the goods stock. I wonder a. if that was their actual design or the artists's interpretation and b. what the ride was like. 

Not everything under mountainous tarpaulins is hay, it would seem. Again possibly artistic interpretation.

I don't know where this picture came from. It is filed under 'Railway - downloads'. If anyone's copyright is infringed I shall remove it if asked. The original artist must be well gone!

Edited January 21, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Tom Burnham]

3 hours ago, whart57 said:

A century later hay was not only being carried, it was being collected and loaded  from the track side

 

I believe that would have been fairly usual.  I recall reading a minute of one of the SE&CR Managing Committee sub-committees that apportioned the value of the year's lineside hay harvest between the SER and Chatham & Dover companies.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

 

They bear a strong resemblence to the Peco printed model railway backscenes - except that they've already got the trains!

[rocor]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

The vehicles I find oddest are the ones on the second row down with two compartments. It looks as if the passengers have been loaded into containers that have been  hoisted onto flat wagons! The passenger carriages seem to have a shorter wheelbase to length ratio compared with the goods stock. I wonder a. if that was their actual design or the artists's interpretation and b. what the ride was like. 

Not everything under mountainous tarpaulins is hay, it would seem. Again possibly artistic interpretation.

I don't know where this picture came from. It is filed under 'Railway - downloads'. If anyone's copyright is infringed I shall remove it if asked. The original artist must be well gone!

 

Ah!, If only photography could have been invented fifty years before it was.

[Michael Hodgson]

Are the wagons at the rear of the second train very short wheelbase opens without their drop down doors? 

Or two-whelers?!!

[Dana Ashdown]

21 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

I don't think Liverpool, though trialled on the L&M, was accepted into service, though (the artist) Bury depicts a 'Liverpool' running on a L&M service, an illustration Anthony Dawson labels as 'Liver' I think the only Bury actually accepted for service on the L&M. 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe Bury had to build Liver with outside frames, otherwise the railway wouldn't accept it. This was due in large part to George Stephenson's influence at that time. 

[APOLLO]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

The vehicles I find oddest are the ones on the second row down with two compartments. It looks as if the passengers have been loaded into containers that have been  hoisted onto flat wagons! The passenger carriages seem to have a shorter wheelbase to length ratio compared with the goods stock. I wonder a. if that was their actual design or the artists's interpretation and b. what the ride was like. 

Not everything under mountainous tarpaulins is hay, it would seem. Again possibly artistic interpretation.

I don't know where this picture came from. It is filed under 'Railway - downloads'. If anyone's copyright is infringed I shall remove it if asked. The original artist must be well gone!

 

Load under the tarpaulins - Cotton bales from the port of Liverpool to the Mills of Lancashire ? One of the main traffic the L&M was built for.

 

Brit15

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, whart57 said:

A century later hay was not only being carried, it was being collected and loaded  from the track side

 

 

I didn't realise electrification was part of the proposed reopening of the line from March to Wisbech.

Some of these artist's impressions are very good nowadays.

[Edwardian]

50 minutes ago, Dana Ashdown said:

I believe Bury had to build Liver with outside frames, otherwise the railway wouldn't accept it. This was due in large part to George Stephenson's influence at that time. 

 

I find Dawson's account of this confusing. The colour illustration is captioned as Liver in Dawson's book, but the engine in the picture bears the name Liverpool, and I cannot see how it is said to represent Liver, because I do not see how the, admittedly crude, drawing is supposed to represent the Stephenson sandwhich frame rather than the Bury bar-frame of Liverpool.

 

I think a standard Bury 0-4-0 named Liverpool is the way to go here. 

[corneliuslundie]

The only two-wheeled railway wagons I have come across were in Utrecht Railway Museum. I believe for towing behind railcars or similar. But perhaps they were just copying the L&M.

Seriously, they could be open carriages with open side hung doors.

Or (not so serious) no doors at all for quick station stops on commuter routes.

Jonathan

[Michael Hodgson]

46 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Seriously, they could be open carriages with open side hung doors.

Or (not so serious) no doors at all for quick station stops on commuter routes.

Jonathan

I was under the possibly mistaken impression that open wagons with (temporary) bench seating were provided for the conveyance of the lower orders as part of the grand line opening celebrations but that it was only slightly later in the Victorian era that the working class would actually be able to afford to travel by train, and only infrequently even then.

 

Parliamentary trains began with the 1844 Railway Regulation Act.

[corneliuslundie]

Michael is right, so perhaps simply open wagons with side hung doors - or an artist with a vivid imagination.

Jonathan

[kevinlms]

11 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Michael is right, so perhaps simply open wagons with side hung doors - or an artist with a vivid imagination.

Jonathan

I thought I'd replied to this earlier, but are those '3rd class' actually coal wagons, temporarily fitted with seats?

 

The artist impressions, look like something out of the New English Library part works.

[phil_sutters]

Early Victorian Railway Excursions - The Million Go Forth by Susan Major has some fascinating insights into travelling conditions for the working classes when they did get a train ride. This is her blog at the point of publication and it includes an illustration of an excursion going along the river wall at Wylam. The assortment of vehicles and the modes of seating are worth a look.

https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/early-victorian-railway-excursions-the-million-go-forth/

The numbers travelling on Bank Holiday excursions are detailed as well. There is a table of excursion passengers in Manchester at Whit 1846, totalling 395,700.

Edited January 22, 2023 by phil_sutters

[rocor]

4 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Early Victorian Railway Excursions - The Million Go Forth by Susan Major has some fascinating insights into travelling conditions for the working classes when they did get a train ride. This is her blog at the point of publication and it includes an illustration of an excursion going along the river wall at Wylam. The assortment of vehicles and the modes of seating are worth a look.

https://blog.railwaymuseum.org.uk/early-victorian-railway-excursions-the-million-go-forth/

The numbers travelling on Bank Holiday excursions are detailed as well. There is a table of excursion passengers in Manchester at Whit 1846, totalling 395,700.

 

No! I said what we require are wagons for the transportation of caged Pheasants. 

 

[Caley Jim]

At least they appear to be seated.  When the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway opened in 1842 it had 4th class 'carriages' which were just basically open wagons with a handrail round the edges.  Passengers had to stand!

 

Jim

[kevinlms]

27 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

At least they appear to be seated.  When the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway opened in 1842 it had 4th class 'carriages' which were just basically open wagons with a handrail round the edges.  Passengers had to stand!

 

Jim

The earliest commuter trains then! I think it was common on the earliest railways.

[Nearholmer]

Railway Modeller, July 1969, good article by Mike Sherman about creating variations of better class stock from Triang ‘Rocket’ carriages.

[Dana Ashdown]

On 21/01/2023 at 11:59, Edwardian said:

I find Dawson's account of this confusing. The colour illustration is captioned as Liver in Dawson's book, but the engine in the picture bears the name Liverpool, and I cannot see how it is said to represent Liver, because I do not see how the, admittedly crude, drawing is supposed to represent the Stephenson sandwhich frame rather than the Bury bar-frame of Liverpool.

I agree, but I was basing my comment on Harry Jack, Locomotives of the LNWR Southern Division (The Railway Correspondence & Travel Society, Sawtry, England, 2001) and R.H.G. Thomas' history of the Liverpool & Manchester. Unfortunately, I don't have them to hand at the moment.😔

[Dana Ashdown]

On 18/01/2023 at 14:05, Dana Ashdown said:

I can't remember the website, but in its raw state, your Planet print looks like the X-ray that was done on the Planet replica at the Museum of Industry in Manchester.

I found the link!

http://www.maths.manchester.ac.uk/our-research/research-groups/inverse-problems/x-raying-stephensons-planet-locomotive/

 

But, it doesn't seem too anymore, so here is the X-ray view of Planet.

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Dana Ashdown

[whart57]

On 22/01/2023 at 14:36, Caley Jim said:

At least they appear to be seated.  When the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway opened in 1842 it had 4th class 'carriages' which were just basically open wagons with a handrail round the edges.  Passengers had to stand!

 

Jim

 

Fourth class was quite common after 1844 due to the Railway Act of that year demanding roofs and windows for third class passengers and many railways having open thirds that they didn't want to scrap.

 

We also tend to think that Britain is a class-bound society, but 19th century Prussia was if anything worse. First class on Prussian trains was intended for the titled aristocracy, the merely wealthy travelled second class. (This was a common distinction on Continental railways and is the reason why, when most went to a two class system around the end of the nineteenth or at the start of the twentieth century, it was second and third class that survived, unlike first and third in the UK). Third class in Prussia was for white collar workers and Fourth Class for manual workers. There was a measure of pragmatism given that fourth class passengers generally travelled in their working clothes which might be none to clean.