Brynamman stations.

[snowy1051]

I wonder if I may be pointed in the right direction for the track layout plans of both Brynamman stations please.

I have long been intrigued with the thought of a layout with nothing but 0--6-0 tank engines and Jintys running a pull push service. 

I have an idea that for shunting at Brynamman East (Midland) it was fly shunting, as there was, I believe, no convenient run round. 

Many thanks for any info which will be gratefully received. 

[Nearholmer]

https://maps.nls.uk/view/135193654
 

Fascinating looking place.

[Compound2632]

The ultimate work on the Midland lines in South Wales  is J. Miles, K. Thomas, and T. Watkins, The Swansea Vale Railway (Lightmoor Press, 2017). Excellent coverage of Brynamman East, including a full signalling diagram. The two stations either side of the road bridge would certainly make a fascinating model, with the variety of levels, interesting trackwork, and bridges over the Amman.

 

Signalling at Brynamman East is interesting too, not only for the overhanging box. The LMS put the Swansea Vale line into the ex-LNWR Swansea District for engineering purposes, so quite a lot of re-signalling was done with LNWR equipment. So in a 1951 photo, we see a pure LNWR signal for the exit from the connecting line from West, with a subsidiary arm for Butler's siding; a LNWR post with LMS UQ arm for the exit from the platform road, an LMS tubular post bracket for the arrival homes, and a GW signal for access to the connecting line.

 

Miles et al. state that shunting was by gravity: an arriving goods train was brought to a stand, the engine uncoupled and run into the platform road, then the train run into the yard by gravity, under the controll of the guard's brake, presumably. The engine then came out to shunt the yard and make up its departing train.

 

What I can't find is any description of how passenger trains were handled before the introduction of motor trains.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/135193654.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Compound2632

[Happy Hippo]

Try the SRS website:

 

Brynamman West (connected to East via the tunnel):

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwm/S2159.htm

 

Brynamman East:

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/mid/S1963.htm

 

Note the rather convenient set of loops.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Aren’t the loops effectively storage roads for traffic going in and out of the tinplate works?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Aren’t the loops effectively storage roads for traffic going in and out of the tinplate works?

 

They were in fact on the wrong side of the line for that. The OS map shows a connection to sidings serving various works and collieries on the Amman side of the line, which doesn't appear on the signal diagram. Miles et al. state that the loops were exchange sidings with the GW. The GW had running powers as far as these sidings; in return, Midland trains could work down the connecting line to back into the timplate works sidings, as they are called on the signalling diagram, all subject to close communication between the Midland and GW signalmen! 

 

What industry was what seems to have changed over the years. The OS map shows the Amman Brick works served by these kick-back sidings, and the Amman Works (Disused) opposite the exchange sidings. Miles et al. say these were originally the Amman Iron Works, closed 1891, but with chimneys suggesting tinplate production - indeed the works is marked as Amman Tinplate Works (Disused) on the Midland 2-chain plan reproduced in the book.

 

The OS map also shows a siding opposite the signal box, facing towards the exchange sidings, which Miles et al. state was a carriage siding. That does imply to my mind that @Happy Hippo's hunch is correct and running-round of passenger trains was done at the exchange sidings. (BTW, Richard, it's only a bridge not a tunnel, though the latter would no doubt have added more spice to exchange movements.)

 

The Midland station was re-signalled in 1908, when the overhanging box was installed. Previously, there had been a box on the platform end and one at the exchange sidings. Combining boxes at such locations seems to have been Midland practice around this time.

[Nearholmer]

I’ve no great interest in either the MR or GWR, but I do like the idea of adapting this lot to become and end-to-end round the room, with sneaky circulation via the little bridge when nobody is looking. Maybe add yet another line, from the exchange sidings to off-scene as a way of bringing goods wagons in and out of play.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Maybe add yet another line, from the exchange sidings to off-scene as a way of bringing goods wagons in and out of play.

 

There were numerous colliery connections. 

 

But it's two BLTs back to back, GW and Mid, so there wants to be a pair of independent fiddle yards on the other side of the room, with just a single line connection between them.

[Nearholmer]

Imagination is a powerful thing, and I imagine it as the basis for either an independent railway, or a jointly-owned railway. I hate FYs, which are a waste of space, so on the other side of the room would be the intermediate station, with engine and carriage sheds.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

so on the other side of the room would be the intermediate station, with engine and carriage sheds.

 

Or Swansea!

[The Johnster]

Or Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen. 

[AY Mod]

8 hours ago, snowy1051 said:

I wonder if I may be pointed in the right direction for the track layout plans of both Brynamman stations please.

 

A good friend is 80%+ on the way with an 8'x2' scenic area layout of Brynamman.

 

[The Johnster]

There was also a GW goods shed to the west of their station on the north side of the line which your friend hasn't got room for, but GW pickups can shunt into their platform while working it, as the turnout faced that way.  But that's a viable match to the NLS 1:25,000.  I don't know exactly how traffic was exchanged between the two companies; probably through running mostly.  The big problem is running around, solved by gravity shunting on the LMS side.  A GW pickup from the Pontardawe or Ammanford direction would have to run a distance on to the LMS side to find a loop to get the loco to the Pontardawe/Ammanford end of it's train.  Perhaps Sectional Appendix local instructions allowed propelling in that direction as far as Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen, especially as if I remember the lay of the land correctly this is uphill.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

I don't know exactly how traffic was exchanged between the two companies; probably through running mostly. 

 

The GW had running powers as far as the Midland exchange sidings, just off scene on the right on Andy's friend's plan.

[The Johnster]

Which solves the problem neatly; Andy's chum can shunt the GW yard, appearing in the platform and setting back out of it as many times as seems apposite, then run through having coupled the van, left standing on the running line to the west of the goods turnout, back on to the train, off the layout the other end, to return later with the van having been attached to the other end.  As these loops are now known to be exchange sidings, it will possibly leave traffic there for the LMS and pick up traffic the LMS has left for the GW.  Another variation would be to drop wagons off, by gravity, into the LMS goods sidings and pick them up to eventually form part of the return train.  Chances are that this is correct operating procedure, or something close enough for jazz... 

 

With traffic from the collieries and tinplate works as well, shunting could be fairly involved; this is very much an operators layout.

[Happy Hippo]

33 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

  A GW pickup from the Pontardawe or Ammanford direction would have to run a distance on to the LMS side to find a loop to get the loco to the Pontardawe/Ammanford end of it's train.  Perhaps Sectional Appendix local instructions allowed propelling in that direction as far as Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen, especially as if I remember the lay of the land correctly this is uphill.

Did you look at the SRS diagrams which I posted links for?  Seems to be a perfectly acceptable loop just the other side of the Midland signal box which would enable both Midland and GW rains to run around as required, which Stephen commented upon earlier!

 

Absolutely no need for a long propelling move.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Happy Hippo

[Nearholmer]

The map appears to show a double loop alongside the GWR goods shed, possibly a loop and a double-ended siding, so I think the GWR goods train could run round there, although one would probably need the appendices/local instructions from both railways to really understand how this lot worked.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The map appears to show a double loop alongside the GWR goods shed, possibly a loop and a double-ended siding, so I think the GWR goods train could run round there, although one would probably need the appendices/local instructions from both railways to really understand how this lot worked.

 

I would imagine the two companies kept themselves to themselves except when some obstinate trader had consigned from Garnant to Gwys or vice versa!

[Nearholmer]

I imagine a wagon label getting misread, resulting in an arrival at “east”, that should have been “west”, whereupon the mistake was realised, and the wagon consigned all the way back down the line, handed over and schlepped all the way back to its intended destination fifty yards away.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Did you look at the SRS diagrams which I posted links for?  Seems to be a perfectly acceptable loop just the other side of the Midland signal box which would enable both Midland and GW rains to run around as required, which Stephen commented upon earlier!

 

Absolutely no need for a long propelling move.

 

Longer than is suggested by the SRS diagrams though; when you look at the NLS map, there are a hundred yards or so on the ground that are sort of missed out in the diagram, which is of course intended as a reference for the signalman and not as an accurate representation of the actual distance or curvature of the line.  Not much to worry about, and a perfectly acceptable distance to propel as the train would move under the road bridge directly from one company's box's station limits to the other.  But Andy's friend's layout will feature this move as being completely from one fy to the other.

[Happy Hippo]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Longer than is suggested by the SRS diagrams though; when you look at the NLS map, there are a hundred yards or so on the ground that are sort of missed out in the diagram, which is of course intended as a reference for the signalman and not as an accurate representation of the actual distance or curvature of the line.  Not much to worry about, and a perfectly acceptable distance to propel as the train would move under the road bridge directly from one company's box's station limits to the other.  But Andy's friend's layout will feature this move as being completely from one fy to the other.

Can't be too far as the point work for the loops at the end nearest the station are worked from Brynamman East box.

[snowy1051]

Many, many thanks to all who have replied. Such truly excellent comments and ideas. Thank you all. Now to the drawing board. 

[The Johnster]

16 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Can't be too far as the point work for the loops at the end nearest the station are worked from Brynamman East box.

 

No, looks like about 100yds on the 6-inch map.  The line crosses the river and the loop starts just to the east of the bridge, the eastern end just before the next bridge as the river loops about a bit.  On the map, this is just below 'Works (disused)'.

[Happy Hippo]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

No, looks like about 100yds on the 6-inch map.  The line crosses the river and the loop starts just to the east of the bridge, the eastern end just before the next bridge as the river loops about a bit.  On the map, this is just below 'Works (disused)'.

It's only about 100 yards to the pub from my house, I'd hardly call that far.

[The Johnster]

About 250 to my pub, but further coming back because you can't manage a straight line!