An N gauge urban vignette

[AndyB]

This thread is a foil to my proposed "N- gauge Southern vignette" layout.

 

Recognising that building a fiddle yard with associated point control and train detection is both expensive and time consuming I want to see if I could plan forward to re-use it for a follow on layout. 

 

This is a schematic showing the reusable FY and interchangeable scenic section.

The scenic area is 10' x 22". This excludes the turnarounds at either end. Grids are 6" square.

 

 

I've been looking at a couple of Iain Rice urban layouts (Paradise Fields and Cannonsgate) and asking myself "Why not"? Can I use parts of them as inspiration for my own layout.

 

So the brief is to substitute the rural scene with a 1950s / early 60s grimy, wintry, inner London scene incorporating a double-track continuous run set on occupied arches snaking through the scene and feeding one of London's Southern terminii.

Towards the front I'd like a goods yard (field) also set up above street level dominated by a large goods shed. I've used this to disguise the twin track as it loops to the rear and used view blockers to stop this being visible from the front.

 

On Rice's Cannonsgate design entry to the layout is via a single track that immediately traverses a plate girder bridge. I'd like to work this in as it adds drama to the scene. So I'm thinking this could be an urban branchline that feeds the goods yard but also links with the main line. A pannier tank and B set not on an idyllic BLT might make a talking point! 

 

In the initial sketch I've tried to represent an old-style junction rather than the modern ladder version. I've included a "Bitsa" station for interest.

 

I've mentioned before that designing stuff in CAD is not my hobby so this is all very rough and only to illustrate the general idea.

 

Please do feel free to produce your own versions! The lines in red are just general ideas and definitely not meant to be taken as gospel. 

 

Any thoughts or reworking of my idea very welcome. Andy

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Something I would take out right away is that double junction facing entry to the yard and just have the trailing connection part of it.   that apart the only problem I can see with the track alyout is that there isn't really a proper fill loads fiield area in the yard but you could add a long siding at the further edge of it trailing off the lines which run round the back of the platform.

[AndyB]

Thanks Mike.

 

Here's Mk2 which hopefully has taken on board your points. 

 

I've simplified the junction but allowed traffic from the branch to either join the mainline or continueon, implying a couple of routes traffic could take; adds a bit of interest. I'd gave liked to get an island platform in but suspect to do so I'd need to start diverging the mainlines towards the middle of the layout. 

 

I've reworked the goods yard, although in this version left some awkwardness in how to break up trains and access different roads into the shed. I gather Iain Rice was a bit of an advocate for leaving this kind of trap for the operator! I can work on that. 

 

In the original Cannonsgate layout there were other features, such as a wagon hoist and loco coaling point etc. So my version is very much pared back. 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Andy what it now desperately needs is a trailing connection from the 'goods line' to the sidings in the vicinity of the gods to main connection to teh right of the station platform.  As it stands, and as you remarked, it is a 'very difficult' layout to shunt in relation to the size and likely level of use of the goods shed and definitely nit something most real railway with an ounce of sense would have tolerated for more than a couple of minutes.

 

In addition you've only got the three shed roads and nowhere to stand aside empty wagons.  the shed would work on a mainly 'tidal' basis with inwards wigns mostly arriving in the morning, being dealt with - often requiring some to be moved out to allow others in plus dealing with any later arrivals.  then outwards wagons would be loaded in the afternoon requiring possibly more empties to be shunted in as those already in teh shed have been loaded.  Don't forget that this depot is serving a large town/city and that is what justifies its size.

[AndyB]

Thanks again, Mike. 

Points duly noted.

 

Whilst this is intended to be "s'arf of the river" I'd hoped to lay my hands on an example goods shed plan from my Fenchurch St. to Barking book. All books neatly stored away at the moment as I re-model the garage! 

 

However, the internet doth provide...

So here's a link to Commercial Road Goods Depot aka "The Tilbury Shelter" with track plan. A slice of this may be the thing to aim for?

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, AndyB said:

Thanks again, Mike. 

Points duly noted.

 

Whilst this is intended to be "s'arf of the river" I'd hoped to lay my hands on an example goods shed plan from my Fenchurch St. to Barking book. All books neatly stored away at the moment as I re-model the garage! 

 

However, the internet doth provide...

So here's a link to Commercial Road Goods Depot aka "The Tilbury Shelter" with track plan. A slice of this may be the thing to aim for?

Nice idea Andy but don't forget the bit you can't see on that trackplan which was no doubt rather essential to the way the depot itself was shunted and how traffic got to/from access to the depot in the first place - - although even then looking at the relevant OS map i's clear that arriving trains blocked the working of half the main shed until they were split.  

 

Your existing plan includes that bit  so you need to bear in mind integrating the two in a way that will work

[AndyB]

OK.

So in this version I've tried to take on board Mike's thoughts about storage sidings to complement the roads into the shed itself. 

 

One road by the shed is intended for disposal of break vans.

 

Entry into the goods yard is via a headshunt; trains can't go directly into the yard from the running line.

 

I'd wanted to include an island platform 

and this is offset from the branch platform, hopefully this lessens the awkwardness of having a shunting necks between the platforms! 

 

I'm sure more improvements can be made, but this is as far as I got last night.

[The Stationmaster]

Andy, the main thing I don't like is the facing connection into the depot with very limited headroom to shunt traffic in or out of the depot area.  The other problem is that you have to occupy a shed road to get at those two holding sidings - I'd turn them round.

[AndyB]

Thanks Mike,

I'm struggling to correct the facing point into the yard as traffic would come from both directions. Not sure how to resolve that, TBH.

 

Anybody got a suggestion?

 

You're right to point out that accessing the holding sidings means the shed road is blocked. It's also quite short, making it inefficient abd needing multiple moves to put one or two wagons in each time. I'll see how to swap that round for my next iteration.

[Harlequin]

In the era you've set, trains would probably set back into the yard via trailing points.

 

So, from the nearside line there would be a simple trailing connection and from the offside line a trailing connection that simply crosses the nearside line, optionally with a trailing slip if it's useful to have a crossover at that location for other reasons. (Can be difficult to do that in a tight model radius curve so you might have to go all the way back to the fiddle yard to make, or fake, up that connection.)

 

[AndyB]

Thanks Mike and Phil.

I've reversed the holding sidings and I think they make more sense now. 

I've also put a trailing point into the yard, but as this line is bi-directiobal I'm not sure it can ever count as such. 

 

 

I looked at joining the goods yard to the mainline. But the way I envisaged operating this was to have a fairly continuous stream of passenger trains operating on the double track, acting as a backdrop to shut ting operations to the front. Thereby giving a sense of the busyness you might expect. 

 

I'm out of ideas on how to improve this now, short of scrapping the idea! So perhaps something for the back burner to mull over. I'd be in good company as in Iain Rice's supporting text he mentioned worrying away at the design for years over hundreds of versions. 

[The Stationmaster]

Right Andy - I don't think you're going to get the yard layout much better than that and it is very workable for a train heading from the right hand side towards the left and it could be used - witha yard pilot - for train going the other way.

 

The only oddity compared with large urban freight terminals, such as your example - and the various others within a fairly short distance from it - is the single line - all of them had double line access.   So the freight single line jars a bit with me for that sort of location, especia;;y as trans will be standing on it to detach/attach and thus blockling it fr some time.  To me it would make more sense as a unidirectional line as there clearly isn't enough space to include a double line but that is looking at it from a railway operator's viewpoint..

[AndyB]

Thanks Mike.

Good to know the design has improved.  

Your feedback much appreciated as ever.

 

I've no real problem with the single track line being uni-directional. For me the interesting part is the first sight of a train appearing over that bridge into a gritty, urban landscape; it'd make a great photograph. 

 

Much like the various goods yards* adjacent to Fenchurch St. I envisaged that this shed would be the final destination of freight trains, rather than a pick up and set down point for through freight trains. Proximity to the end of the LTSR makes me believe this.

 

So, yes, you're right freight trains going right to left would block the running line whilst before setting back into the yard. But I'm not sure they'd stay on the line whilst having wagons removed or added. 

 

* I found my copy of "Fenchurch Street to Barking" (Middleton Press). For some unexplained reason it was exactly where I'd left! 🤣

Edited February 18, 2023 by AndyB

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting thought that Andy if you do make it a 'destination rather than a drop off location along the way.  In that case it might be worth incorporating along loop at the front of the layout which would make it much easier to trun round trains/ accept a second trains at busier times of day.

 

It a;; depends how you're think of the layout in operational terms.  You'll have seen my interest in shunting at the recent Alton show - now illustrated in the relevan threadon here on RMweb.  And at the Risborough show today there was an excellent industrial (paper mill)) layout incorporating a BR arrival & departure loop/exchange sidings.  

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/153350-inchyra-paper-mill-stock-scenics/page/2/

 

So masses of shunting potential with various destinations within the paper mil anda real purpose for the arriving/departing trains and the shunting.  You could do something very  similar with this plan as it has excellent shunting/traffic turnover within the goods shed potential and my only concern would be to get the coupling sysem the right one for doing that sort of thng.  

 

All going on while 'automatic' passenger trains pass in the background on the passenger railway

[AndyB]

Thanks Mike.

Inchyra, certainly a nice looking layout and looks to be fun to operate.

I'll re-do the plan tomorrow to add that.

And I'll remember to bring the Fenchurch St to Barking book along to the Basingstoke show to show you some of those photos.

 

Shunting is often thought to be problematic in N gauge. So I get your point. On Chestnut Lane I used small cuboid magnets (about 3mm square?) embedded between sleepers and the Peco decoupled lift arms. Takes a bit of adjustment but is unobtrusive and economical. 

 

I think this layout could occupy 2 operators, one working the mainline and another the goods yard. Yep, the mainline could be automated to deliver a parade of trains, although on some layouts I'm never quite sure who is in charge...

 

 

[AndyB]

 

 

Extra loop added.

I've also tried to fiddle around with the curves through and behind the goods shed. Not with much success yet; as you can see Anyrail is highlighting where the curvature is causing problems. 

 

One feature I wanted to include was a bow arch bridge. Not possible on the twin track mai line. But, along with the front fascia it works well to disguise where the rails disappear into the FY. I think it also captures that aspect of London with lines criss crossing all over the place.

It also helps balance the scene; without which the large goods shed would make the layout look a bit lopsided.

[Steven B]

There's some horrible curves developing, and I'm not at all sure how the two levels of occupied arches will work.

 

Can I suggest looking at Grahame Hedges' Stoney Lane Depot for some inspiration?

https://www.cmra.org.uk/exhib11/h24.html

Based on NSE, it features the end of a station located on a high-level line on a viaduct, with a branch dropping down and under the viaduct to a small loco/EMU depot. Replace the motive power depot with a goods facility and you've got something that's perhaps closer to what you want to achieve. Such a plan should also allow you to put in your bow string bridge on the main running lines (which can then have some nice, smooth, large radius curves).

 

Splitting the yard from the running line will simplify the track layouts as many of the facing/trailing points can be located off scene.

 

Steven B.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Steven B

[AndyB]

Thanks Steven. 

 

You're not wrong about a couple of the curves where I need to ease them out a bit. 

The two areas on raised arches are at the same height, roughly 20 feet above the street scene; sorry if that wasn't obvious from my sketches.

 

I had the pleasure of seeing Grahame's Stoney Lane depot a few years ago at a show, so understand where you're coming from. But for this layout my thinking is to have the trackwork on just one level.