Cows in cattle wagons - how arranged?

[Morello Cherry]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Presumably this was a weekly market? Assuming that's the case, an average of 35 cattle and 350 sheep per week, though there will have been considerable seasonal variation. It's interesting that the proportion of sheep to cattle is not far off that on a hill farm with which I am familiar about 10 miles away. I expect that then as now, in that area, milk provided farmers with a steady year-round income while the income from sheep - lambs away for fattening and fleeces to Bradford* - came maybe twice a year.

 

*In the 1870s. Now the lambs go to Bradford and it's a struggle to get a worthwhile price for fleeces. 

 

The evidence suggests that it is a weekly or fortnightly market. (There is a discussion elsewhere about the day of the market changing). The market was next to Kendal station.

 

There is also this reference to where things were sent:

 

Quote

'In February, 1849, a similar fair was started at Milnthorpe Station, and 26 truck loads of fat cattle were dispatched by the railway to Manchester. Penrith also started a fortnightly fair on Mondays.'

 

Manchester seems to be the main market for stuff from Kendal as there are lots of references to sending stuff there.

 

The price for fat cattle and mutton c1849 was 6d/lb.

 

Another agricultural cargo from the area

 

Quote

The quantity of butter despatched from stations in Westmorland by the London and North-Western Railway in I891 was 185 tons 3 cwt

 

Source for all this is Garnett 'Westmoreland Agriculture' (1912). It is available free to access in electronic form if anyone is interested.

[wasabi]

Somewhere I read that the Listowell & Ballybunnion carried cattle in its open wagons, which were divided into two halves - one each side of the running rail.   With a cow in each, they balanced.  If there was only one cow, two calves would be borrowed to go in the other compartment and on the return without the cow, one calf would go on each side to acheive balance.  The wagons are available on Shapeways....

 

[IPW]

[magmouse]

We were discussing horses in cattle trucks a little, and I just came across this:

Loading of horses, and cattle truck roof detail (excerpt from Jim Russell, GWR Miscellany, vol 1, plate 30). The caption says this is after the horse fair at Lampeter, 1909.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, magmouse said:

The caption says this is after the horse fair at Lampeter, 1909.

 

Note the wagon sheets on the roofs, ready for rolling down over the sides so that the horses aren't alarmed by the rapidly-changing scenery.

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, magmouse said:

We were discussing horses in cattle trucks a little, and I just came across this:

Loading of horses, and cattle truck roof detail (excerpt from Jim Russell, GWR Miscellany, vol 1, plate 30). The caption says this is after the horse fair at Lampeter, 1909.

 

Nick.

 

That calls for a link to this wonderful BFI film of the Dali horse fair at Lampeter: 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-great-dalis-horse-fair-lampeter-may-1914-1914-online

 

See prior discussion, starting here: 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/163858-how-were-horses-loaded/?do=findComment&comment=4403310

 

Those who are outside the UK cannot see BFI films (unless they use VPN), so here's a still from the film (note ad hoc tethering):

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Mikkel

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, wasabi said:

Somewhere I read that the Listowell & Ballybunnion carried cattle in its open wagons, which were divided into two halves - one each side of the running rail.   With a cow in each, they balanced.  If there was only one cow, two calves would be borrowed to go in the other compartment and on the return without the cow, one calf would go on each side to acheive balance.  The wagons are available on Shapeways....

 

[IPW]

 

When they had an odd number of cows, I thought they put one in a passenger coach and two fat ladies in the other side ?

[jim.snowdon]

A fascinating thread, all six pages of it. A few additional snippets -

- The Metropolitan Railway had a fleet of 18 cattle wagons, 12 of which were built to the essentially standard length of 18', and 6 that were 22' long (over headstocks) that had been converted from redundant rail wagons. That probably made them the largest cattle wagons ever used on British railways, and they came with partitions that could be set in one of four positions - S, M, L & XL? They were all built in the era when the use of lime wash was normal, but unlike any others that I have come across, the Met painted the lower parts of the outsides white, I guess so that the inevitable spillage of the lime wash didn't look so untidy.

- related to the use of screw couplings on cattle wagons, whether fitted or not, was a Board of Trade requirement that loaded livestock wagons should always be marshalled next to the engine so as to minimise the longitudinal shocks encountered in transit. Screw couplings obviously allowed the buffers to be drawn up tight.

- my understanding is that wagons conveying horses were, in accordance with BoT regulations, sheeted so as not to cause the animals distress. That went out the window to an extent during the First War, when the needs of the considerable horse traffic required for the Army in France caused, at least on the Great Western, high sided goods wagons to be used for this traffic. Rings were added to their outsides so that the animals could be tethered, but that was about it.

 

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

That calls for a link to this wonderful BFI film of the Dali horse fair at Lampeter: 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-great-dalis-horse-fair-lampeter-may-1914-1914-online

 

See prior discussion, starting here: 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/163858-how-were-horses-loaded/?do=findComment&comment=4403310

 

Those who are outside the UK cannot see BFI films (unless they use VPN), so here's a still from the film (note ad hoc tethering):

 

 

Rolling hitches - I wonder why?

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

- related to the use of screw couplings on cattle wagons, whether fitted or not, was a Board of Trade requirement that loaded livestock wagons should always be marshalled next to the engine so as to minimise the longitudinal shocks encountered in transit.

 

Do you have a reference for that regulation? May it not have been a Board of Agriculture regulation, as are the others governing the transit of animals we've seen quoted or reproduced?

[uax6]

28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do you have a reference for that regulation? May it not have been a Board of Agriculture regulation, as are the others governing the transit of animals we've seen quoted or reproduced?

 

It might be in the Appendix for the working of trains, I'm sure I've seen it in a railway publication <somewhere> like that.

On the note about screwing the couplings up, Gerry Fiennes recounts that the guards would usually slip off the 3 linker of the adjoining wagon to the van, and pop on the brake vans (or a 'spare' if the van didn't have one) screw coupling and tighten it up to the wagon, to help steady the brake van, although it appears not to have helped much with the 'Swedie' GE brakes!

 

Andy G

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, uax6 said:

It might be in the Appendix for the working of trains, I'm sure I've seen it in a railway publication <somewhere> like that.

 

That, I think, would be an instance of the Board of Agriculture/Trade regulation (made under powers given by one of the Diseases of Animals/Regulation of Railways Acts) being embedded in the company's Rules, so not the primary source.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Compound2632

[Morello Cherry]

On the subject of transporting horses in open wagons - I assume no one has tried transporting a horse in the replica horse dandy at the Ffestiniog. You'd need a very placid horse to try it. I can't imagine many contemporary horses reacting positively to whizzing down a hillside by gravity at 20mph.

 

I had a look at contemporary rules to see if there might be any indication as to rules and found the following from Indian Railways - obviously accepting that this is a different state and some years after the period being modelled but we might also assume that it draws on some elements of British railway practice.

https://wgbis.ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/Environ_sys/legis/anirule14.htm

 

Quote

55. When cattle is to be transported by rail.

(a) An ordinary goods wagon shall carry not more than ten adult cattle or fifteen calves on broad gauge, not more than six adult cattle or ten calves on metre gauge, or not more than four adult cattle or six calves on narrow gauge.

(b) every wagon carrying cattle shall have at least one attendant.

(c) cattle shall be loaded parallel to the rails, facing each other.

(d) rations for padding, such as straw, shall be placed on the floor to avoid injury if a cattle lies down and this shall not be less than 6 cms thick.

(e) rations for the journey shall be carried in the middle of the wagon.

 

Further on there are references to cattle (that need to be milked) being milked. But... I am wondering how many journeys in the UK would be long enough for that.

 

For goods vehicles it says the following:

 

Quote

(f) to prevent cattle being frightened or injured, they should preferably, face the engine.

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[Andy Hayter]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Rolling hitches - I wonder why?

A rolling hitch can be tied and untied when there is load on the rope - ie a horse which is not playing the game.

[phil_sutters]

Perhaps he knows where he is headed for. Wonder Book of Railways from WW1 era.

Edited March 15, 2023 by phil_sutters

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do you have a reference for that regulation? May it not have been a Board of Agriculture regulation, as are the others governing the transit of animals we've seen quoted or reproduced?

There were various Instructions which changed over the years and effectively such wagons could be marshalled either on the engine or immediately in front of the nrakeevan on freight train or behind the rearmost brakevan (if they were fitted) on passenger trains.  In simple terms it boiled down to where they were to be detached (or had been attached) and the convenience of the moves necessary to do that.

 

NormallyfittedNPCCS anulal carrying vehiocles would go on the engine on longer distance and fast passenger trains but could go either end on a local service - again for the convenience of attaching/detaching.

 

Only vacuum fitted vehicles would have screw couplings and the Instructions made it very clear that if a vehicle with a screw coupling was marshalled next to one with an ordinary three link shackle the latter coupling was to be used.

[Morello Cherry]

51 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Perhaps he knows where he is headed for. Wonder Book of Railways from WW1 era.

 

Not dissimilar to the way 'thinker' racehorses are loaded into the stalls on the flat with a hood over the head.

[Compound2632]

I've been working may way backwards through the MR Traffic Committee minutes at The National Archives. Today I did two volumes covering late August 1869 to the end of September 1872. There were a couple of cattle wagon related minutes that might be of interest:

 

Minute 15,827 of 31 August 1869

 

Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act 1869

                              Referring to Minute 15799. A list of the places where it would be necessary to provide accommodation for watering cattle was submitted and approved, and

                              Resolved that the Way and Works Committee be requested to have the necessary pipes laid down, and troughs provided, with as little delay as possible.

 

I'll have to look the Act up but I suspect it might be the first legislation on welfare of animals being transported, though evidently in the context of controlling the spread of disease.

 

Minute 16,720 of 1 November 1870

 

Cattle Wagons

                              The inconvenience the Company were subject to, in consequence of not having a class of Wagon at a similar size, viz. 13 ft 6 in long, as those which are provided by other Companies, with whom the Midland are in direct competition for the Irish Cattle Traffic, having been explained, it was

                              Resolved, that the Locomotive Committee be requested to provide 50 Cattle Wagons of the dimensions named.

 

In other words, the Midland had not had "small" cattle wagons in the 60s. It does seem a bit odd that the Irish cattle importers preferred small wagons; one would have thought that the volume of traffic was such that they could easily fill large trucks. Maybe the system of rates wasn't quite right and the small truck gave the minimum fare per beast?

[Morello Cherry]

FWIW - The act is available on The Railway Archives

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=637

 

There were earlier and later acts:

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/doclisting.php?sortKey=date&sortDirection=ASC&showSearch=true&text=animals&startYear=all&endYear=all&development=all&category=all&author=all&publisher=all&published=all&submit=Go

 

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

The act is available on The Railway Archives

 

Thanks - I hadn't discovered that aspect of Railways Archive.

[Aire Head]

On 14/03/2023 at 19:47, Michael Hodgson said:

 

When they had an odd number of cows, I thought they put one in a passenger coach and two fat ladies in the other side ?

What happens when you have an odd number of fat ladies?

[Michael Hodgson]

Sacks of potatoes.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

What happens when you have an odd number of fat ladies?

They can't sing in harmony so it will never end?

[wagonman]

On 15/03/2023 at 09:14, Morello Cherry said:

 

 

 

Further on there are references to cattle (that need to be milked) being milked. But... I am wondering how many journeys in the UK would be long enough for that.

 

 

 

 

 

The GWR General Appendix (and presumably all the other railways' GAs too ) have detailed instructions for the care of animals in transit – feeding, watering, and milking where necessary, so they obviously assume that some journeys would be long enough.

 

They don't seem to say anything about loading head to tail, or any other way, but where you have a full load of horned cattle it does seem to make sense – especially as they may not know from which side of the vehicle the animals would be detrained.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

They don't seem to say anything about loading head to tail, or any other way, but where you have a full load of horned cattle it does seem to make sense – especially as they may not know from which side of the vehicle the animals would be detrained.

 

I've pretty much come to the conclusion, from this thread, that the cattle were driven up the gangway and sorted themselves out; and that they were capable of shuffling round to disembark head first. I'm not sure being inside the wagon with the cattle was altogether a good idea.

 

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

The GWR General Appendix (and presumably all the other railways' GAs too ) have detailed instructions for the care of animals in transit – feeding, watering, and milking where necessary, so they obviously assume that some journeys would be long enough.

 

As mentioned above, these instructions embody the Board of Agriculture rules made under the various Infectious Diseases (Animals) and similar Acts. I can't remember exactly where I read this since this topic started but up to 36 hours without watering was permitted for some classes of traffic - may have been pigs.

 

I quoted a bit from the Midland Traffic Committee minutes from 1870, recording actions taken in response to rules being made under the 1869 Act: choosing locations at which it would be convenient to stop cattle trains for feeding and watering and installing troughs. The latter implies, I think, that the cattle were got out of the trucks for refreshment, much as the long-distance passengers of the day were at places such as Preston or Normanton.   

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I quoted a bit from the Midland Traffic Committee minutes from 1870, recording actions taken in response to rules being made under the 1869 Act: choosing locations at which it would be convenient to stop cattle trains for feeding and watering and installing troughs. The latter implies, I think, that the cattle were got out of the trucks for refreshment, much as the long-distance passengers of the day were at places such as Preston or Normanton.   

The railways later erected signs at places with troughs full of water ...😵

http://www.railsigns.uk/images/sect25/25_3.gif