Pre 1939 lime traffic

[Nearholmer]

I think the use of lime in agriculture must have varied, probably still does, by local soil type.

 

I read that Westmoreland case as being about changing the PH of former high heath, which would start out very acidic, upland bog essentially, whereas on lowland souls, certainly in the areas I was familiar with in the SE when growing up, it was used as a “clay breaker”. Now, I think clay is also acidic [Nope, checking it’s usually alkaline], but I don’t think that was the primary purpose [not the purpose at all then].

 

My grandfather would have known, he was a lifelong nurseryman and latterly head gardener on an estate, who had attended courses on “soil amendment” at the research station in Bedfordshire during WW2 when guys like him were given scientific education to improve food production, but sadly he hasn’t been with us for a long time.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Andy Hayter]

Calcium hydroxide* on clay binds the very fine individual particles together and form a more workable soil.

And yes on boggy, acidic ground** its function is different and acts to neutralise the acidity.

 

*  Calcium oxide converts to the hydroxide i contact with any moisture.

** Not necessarily upland, there are (better said were) large tracts of lowland bog before the extensive use of lime and expansion of agriculture.  Loss of ecological habitat is not new.  

[Worsdell forever]

18 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

I am still struggling to believe that unslaked lime would be dropped from a bottom discharge wagon into a cell.  Even if most of the product were lumps there would be enough dust to choke or blind anyone in the vicinity. It is extremely corrosive and binds with any moisture (eyes, throat and lungs) to form a very alkaline calcium hydroxide.

 

Many years ago my granddad told me that he and his two brothers went to collect lime for the fields from Kettleness station and he said that 'they [station staff] wouldn't drop the lime until we were there to take it away'. it was shovelled in to ordinary farm carts. I would imagine it would be delivered in 10-12 ton hoppers, sheeted It's quite rare to find photos of 20t hoppers on station coal depots, these were mostly used for pit to industry and ports.

 

 

[Morello Cherry]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I think the use of lime in agriculture must have varied, probably still does, by local soil type.

 

I read that Westmoreland case as being about changing the PH of former high heath, which would start out very acidic, upland bog essentially, whereas on lowland souls, certainly in the areas I was familiar with in the SE when growing up, it was used as a “clay breaker”. Now, I think clay is also acidic [Nope, checking it’s usually alkaline], but I don’t think that was the primary purpose [not the purpose at all then].

 

My grandfather would have known, he was a lifelong nurseryman and latterly head gardener on an estate, who had attended courses on “soil amendment” at the research station in Bedfordshire during WW2 when guys like him were given scientific education to improve food production, but sadly he hasn’t been with us for a long time.

 

The RHS has this which is quite interesting:

 

https://www.rhs.org.uk/soil-composts-mulches/lime-liming

 

There is a bit on liming clay here: https://britishlime.org/technical/soil_stabilisation.php  (Seems to be about changing the structure to aid drainage / reducing compaction which would make sense in low lying areas where flooding/waterlogging might be an issue.

[Nearholmer]

4 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Not necessarily upland, there are (better said were) large tracts of lowland bog before the extensive use of lime and expansion of agriculture.

Yes, I was thinking of lowland clay. I’m well familiar with lowland bog, as well as highland/mountain bog, having visited oodles of worked (= environmentally damaged) bogs in pursuit of narrow gauge railways, even one in northern France, where the peat was extracted to be used in making cosmetics IIRC.

 

When you see a full-on lowland bog in natural, as opposed to damaged/worked condition, it’s quite an amazing thing - at the edges where it meets mineral soil, the peat towers up like a castle rampart, or a huge souffle, way above the basic ground level or the original water level.

[doilum]

I'm quite enjoying all this stuff on soil chemistry, once upon a time it was part of the geography A level spec.

Baçk to the drops. Ignoring those large enough to reverse a truck into, were the floors level or sloping? Sloping would have reduced capacity but have made shoveling easier.

Edited March 15, 2023 by doilum

[Bernard Lamb]

 

54 minutes ago, doilum said:

I'm quite enjoying all this stuff on soil chemistry, once upon a time it was part of the geography A level spec.

Baçk to the drops. Ignoring those large enough to reverse a truck into, were the floors level or sloping? Sloping would have reduced capacity but have made shoveling easier.

Level as far as I have come across.

Wooden sleeper built facilities for coal were level so I see no reason for any difference with drops.

I would have thought that they were all big enough to get a truck under. But as the load in a wagon would equal several trucks I do not see that method as an option. Houshold coal would be bagged. I remember being about age 5 and being told to count the number os sacks that were delivered. Not that the coalman was a crook but just afer the war people were wary, particularly as we had just moved into a newly built house and there was distrust between locals nd newcomers.

Bernard

[doilum]

Summing up what I have learned about Selby drops, they were quite low just enough for a tall man to work under. I calculate that each cell held around 25 tons . This is a a guestimàtion based on measuring a model of a NE 20 tonner and comparing it mock up model.

They probably remained important until the 1970s and the arrival of north Sea gas and central heating. Lorries were smaller and much slower so a return trip to local collieries just ten miles away would take a full morning.

 

[iands]

13 hours ago, doilum said:

They probably remained important until the 1970s and the arrival of north Sea gas and central heating....

 

 Just a little earlier. 5th March 1969 to be precise, when the Down Branch Goods line from Selby South to Selby West secured OOU as well as sidings. Horse dock, Timber siding and coal drops all secured OOU. All signals appertaining to the branch and sidings to be abolished. At West, the down Branch Goods slewed into Down Branch Siding and shortened to 150 yds and named ‘Coal Siding’.

 

The above info gleaned from the Weekly Operating Notice for the time held in the SRS archive.

[doilum]

I cannot speak for other places but in area 8 coal merchants delivered in sacks whilst the miner's concessionary coal was loose tipped on the street by the coal leaders. By the end of the 60s one or two larger merchants were using large lorries with a hopper that filled the sacks outside the customers gate.

[Asterix2012]

I took a few photos of the large limekiln at Littlemill next to the east coast mainline last year, may be if interest to this subject 

 

have to make a few posts to get them in

Edited March 19, 2023 by Asterix2012

[Asterix2012]

[Asterix2012]

[Asterix2012]

[Asterix2012]

[phil_sutters]

Lime kilns can appear almost anywhere. This one was at the western end of the Grand Surrey Canal at Camberwell, a couple of miles south of Waterloo. Doubtless this would have been for building purposes.

On the information boards at Amberley Chalk Pits there is an illustration showing sheeted wagons being pulled away from the kilns. They appear to be the type with the bars.

Edited March 19, 2023 by phil_sutters

[jim.snowdon]

The difficulty with a thread like this is defining what is meant by 'lime'. There's limestone - calcium carbonate - which is used for all manner of purposes, ranging from construction, through iron smelting to agriculture, where its prime purpose is as a means of improving acid soils by raising the pH value. Limestone is pretty inert, so can be transported loose, in bulk, with no real need for protection.

 

Then, there is Slaked Lime - calcium hydroxide - which is used for such purposes as making lime mortar, papermaking, agriculture (where it is more effective than Calcium Carbonate). Again, it is relatively inert, and can be transported in bulk with no real requirements for protection, although as an aqueous solution it can cause chemical burns, being quite alkaline.

 

Lastly, there is Quicklime - Calcium Oxide - made by heating limestone in a kiln. This is not nice stuff and has to be kept dry, or it will convert into Calcium Hydroxide, generating a lot of heat in the process. Deduction would suggest that it was for the carriage of quicklime, presumably in bagged form, that the various peak-roofed lime wagons were built. Apart from its use in making lime mortar (once slaked), quicklime is also used in the steel making process for removing Silicon, Aluminium and Iron oxides as slag.

 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

The difficulty with a thread like this is defining what is meant by 'lime'. There's limestone

 

Limestone is, I think, hors de question. The minerals inwards register from Skipton I've been looking at has separate columns for lime and limestone.

 

13 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Then, there is Slaked Lime

 

Certainly on topic. The question is, would open wagons of slaked lime require sheeting?

 

17 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Lastly, there is Quicklime - Calcium Oxide - made by heating limestone in a kiln. 

 

This is where it gets a bit more controversial, since we've had good evidence for the loading of quicklime direct from the kiln into ordinary open wagons, per @jamie92208's evidence re. the Craven Lime Co. 

[Andy Hayter]

Sheeting of Calcium Hydroxide:  Chemically not necessary, water is not going to change it but if it has been dried (as I assume it would be) then it is likely to cake - so something to avoid.  It could also have a negative effect on any packaging - jute sacks?  Probably too early for paper sacks.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Andy Hayter said:

It could also have a negative effect on any packaging - jute sacks?  

 

It does seem to me that the evidence is pointing to the lime being carried loose in wagons, not in sacks or bags, at this period (pre-1939).

[jamie92208]

I posted a photo recently on the D299 thread showing a rake of loaded wagons at Giggleswick Station taken I think in 1928, all the wagons were sheeted.  Certainly the limeworks had hydrating pits for producing slaked lime. I agree that these loads would not be covered.  Perhaps the peaked roofed wagons were an attempt to do away with the labour of sheeting.

I've now arrived in the UK and my copy of the second edition of David Johnson's book was waiting for me. I will read it in due course and if there is anymore useful informati0n I'll add it here.

 

Jamie

 

 

[jim.snowdon]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This is where it gets a bit more controversial, since we've had good evidence for the loading of quicklime direct from the kiln into ordinary open wagons, per @jamie92208's evidence re. the Craven Lime Co. 

Agreed, but that is just one picture and we don't know what happened next. Quicklime is not only stuff that you want to keep dry, but kept away from people, especially those not directly involved. There was a reason for all those peak roofed lime wagons, but a chronic lack of evidence as to how they were used. The same is true of the covered salt wagons and it is purely by chance that I discovered a piece of cine footage that showed some with the doors open that confirmed that they carried bagged salt. Our problem is that freight operations and the movement of goods on the railways was so much less interesting to photographers than the thing at the front of the train.

 

As a ps., quicklime can come in two forms - in lumps, which is as it comes out of the kiln, and as powdered or ground form. The former is relatively innocuous, in as much as it probably isn't that dusty, but you wouldn't want to handle it with bare hands. You still don't want to get it wet. As a powder, it is obviously rather more hazardous, but is easier to handle in bagged form.

Edited March 26, 2023 by jim.snowdon
Added information.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

There was a reason for all those peak roofed lime wagons, but a chronic lack of evidence as to how they were used.

 

Ah, now, you see: I think the reason for lack of evidence as to how they were used may well be very largely down to them not actually being at all numerous, so "all those" is the questionable part of your sentence.

[jim.snowdon]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, now, you see: I think the reason for lack of evidence as to how they were used may well be very largely down to them not actually being at all numerous, so "all those" is the questionable part of your sentence.

It can be interpreted both ways. Compared to coal wagons, there were not many of these wagons, but there were quite a modest number of owners. And either way, pictures of them in use are about as common as hen's teeth, if that much.

 

[jamie92208]

I think that I mentioned above that Delaney's only had a few peak roof wagons, about 20 I think out of a fleet of about 200. Certainly the Dale's kilns mainly produced large rocks of lime certainly until the rotary mechanised kilns came in later in the 20th century. In Johnsons bo9k there are vivid first hand descriptions of the hazards of lime drawing. I don't have my photos with me so can't post the photo of Spencers Lime sidings at Giggleswick. Hopefully by the time that I get home I will have had more time to re read Johnsons book and may be able to answer the questions better.

 

Jamie