Pre 1939 lime traffic

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Dave John said:

However, the Caledonian built 40 Dia 25 lime wagons from 1886 to 1888. I would be surprised to find any of them lasting into the grouping.

 

Assuredly not, with those dumb buffers. (Unless rebuilt?)

[jamie92208]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Looking at the 1890s 25 in map, never rail connected (though with an internal rail system, presumably NG). So lime must have been carted to Cononley for transhipment for Skipton. This would certainly account for the use of a railway company wagon.

 

The Midland did in the very early days have wagons specifically for lime; in May 1850 tenders were sought for 25 iron bodies for lime wagons, that of Thornewell being accepted subject to his being willing to increase the number to 50. There were also PO wagons, it being reported in September 1852 that many of the Breedon Lime Co.'s wagons were out of condition and were to be refused. It's not absolutely clear, though, that these were wagons for the conveyance of lime rather than limestone.

 

Here's a wagon label, dated 31 March 1898:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of Midland Railway Study Centre item 14603.]

 

That wagon number, 79243, indicates that without doubt this is not a PO wagon but rather a Midland wagon; the wagon is sheeted and (for once) the sheet number has been written in.

 

I do have a photo of the Mann Patent steam wagons that carried the product to the railhead at Cononley but can't share it unfortunately as it was provided to me by the road Locomotive Society.  The quarry was operated by P W Spencers, later Spencers Limes who were associated with Buxton Lime.

 

Jamie

 

Jamie

[Nearholmer]

I feel compelled to sneak this in.

 

Possibly one of the earliest commercial railway models of one of these wagons, lithographed tinplate, by Carette of Nurnberg for Bassett-Lowke, c1909.

 

Not mine, because one in this condition costs more at auction than many locomotives! “L@@k!!! Rare!!!” is true in this case.

 

 
 

Greaves had some cracking round-roofed vans too:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrlave4062b.htm

Edited March 12, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Wickham Green too]

13 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... Greaves had some cracking round-roofed vans too:...

Another one for the Iron Mink suppliers !

[jamie92208]

38 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I feel compelled to sneak this in.

 

Possibly one of the earliest commercial railway models of one of these wagons, lithographed tinplate, by Carette of Nurnberg for Bassett-Lowke, c1909.

 

Not mine, because one in this condition costs more at auction than many locomotives! “L@@k!!! Rare!!!” is true in this case.

 

 
 

Greaves had some cracking round-roofed vans too:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrlave4062b.htm

A good friend of mine and relatively close neighbour has a fabulous collection of Carrette tinplate and has built a gauge 1 line in his garden to run it.   I don't know if he has this wagon in his collection.

 

Jamie

 

[doilum]

I have just come across a picture of the NER 11.ton five plank hopper wagon. Wizard did one in 4 mm. Is there a 7 mm one available? If not it wouldn't be too  hard to scratch build. If I am really lucky Peter Tatlow's book might have a drawing.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, doilum said:

I have just come across a picture of the NER 11.ton five plank hopper wagon. 

 

Taking us back to your starting point. The idea of loose lime being dropped seems a bit alarming but evidently that was normal practice on the North Eastern. But i suppose when one considers that the alternative would be men with shovels getting into the wagon, I suppose it's not so bad. No doubt they wore gaiters and gloves.

[Nick Holliday]

One thing we may be overlooking is that, certainly in the Weald, in south east England, according to this piece in the Sussex Industrial Archaeological Society journal, http://www.sussexias.co.uk/articles/articles_lime_kilns.htm it was normal for each farm to have its own simple kiln, and they would burn their lime as required, using chalk from up to 12 miles away. I suspect that the NER wagons were used to carry limestone, which would be hauled away from the station to the farm in open carts. Transporting burnt lime in open wagons seems fraught with problems, and would probably require some form of specialised flooring to prevent rot. Otherwise the lime would be bagged, as it would be in the vans, but for agricultural use this would not be too sensible given the quantities that would be required to treat fields.

[Andy Hayter]

15 hours ago, doilum said:

From the drawings in Ken Hooles book on NE stations and photos of covered lime cells, my guess is that only 6 plank wagons could squeeze under the covered section. Happy to be corrected.

 

 

You would not have needed a wagon as big as a 6 plank for powdered lime.  At a rough guess a 5 plank 3/4 full would be overweight.

[doilum]

The idea of buying limestone rocks and burning them on site makes sense. Covered cells would prevent the dust turning into an.evil white slurry. Coal wouldn't present the same problem as the dust was removed by washing at the colliery.

[Compound2632]

What I would say to these last few points is the following, based on the Midland sources from the late 1890s mentioned above:

• Lime, as opposed to limestone, was being carried by rail from the lime works attached to the quarries to the customer, and was recorded in its own column in the mineral inwards register - which had four columns: coal, coke, lime, and limestone.
• There is, I think, good circumstantial evidence that lime was being carried loose in the railway company's ordinary open wagons; certainly there is a lack of evidence to the contrary.
• The Skipton register shows less limestone than lime being received.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Compound2632

[doilum]

A quick flick through Tatlow and Hudson vol 1-4 had revealed one or two interesting wagons. Of particular interest is that the Leeds Industrial Cooperative Society had Selby as one of its coal distribution points. Possibly with a dedicated cell?

[Nearholmer]

This is a very well know image of Pepper’s at Amberley, now a museum, and to me it shows burned line being loaded direct to wagons at the kilns, but I think there must be slaking pits at the foot of the kilns, then sheeted. There are very similar photos of Betchworth and other places.

 

 

Im not at all sure that lime would damage wooden wagons, promote rot etc, in fact it was used as a timber preservative.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Nearholmer

[jamie92208]

That is what I've learned, lime was usually loaded direct from the kiln into wooden wagons and was often in quite big lumps from the photos that I've seen. Lime drawing was hot aand potentially dangerous works the stone was still hot. Some was slaked and there is reference to new and bigger pits being installed for this process. That would also be sold separately. Limestone, usually crushed was a separate trade as Stepen has mentioned. Strangely several of the big Dale's quarries also sold grotstone as there were bed's of it beneath the limestone.

 

 

 

Jamie

Edited March 12, 2023 by jamie92208

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

That is what I've learned, lime was usually loaded direct from the kiln into wooden wagons and was often in quite big lumps from the photos that I've seen. Lime drawing was hot aand potentially dangerous works the stone was still hot.  Some was slaked and there is reference to new and bigger pits being installed for this process.  That would also be sold separately.  Limestone, usually crushed was a separate trade as Stepen has mentioned.  Strangely several of the big Dale's quarries also sold grotstone as there were bed's of it beneath the limestone.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Millstone Grit is to be found under the Carboniferous Coal Measures throughout the UK;  Apart from road surfacing, it was used to make refractory linings for blast furnaces etc. (and Millstones, of course)

[Andy Hayter]

I think the rocks under the Ingleborough mass (bounded by Ingleton, Ribblehead, Horton in Ribblesdale and Helwith Bridge) are Ingletonian metamorphosed slates rather than grits.

[Dave John]

Mind you , if you have a history of local limekilns you might as well name the village after it ;

 

https://www.welcometofife.com/destination/limekilns--charlestown

 

 

[Ken.W]

On 11/03/2023 at 22:12, doilum said:

From the drawings in Ken Hooles book on NE stations and photos of covered lime cells, my guess is that only 6 plank wagons could squeeze under the covered section. Happy to be 

 

I mentioned in the previous coal cells thread that I'd seen pics of  a 20t hopper on the covered cells at Goathland.

Have found these two to post links;

(Select link then open from pop-up menu for them to work)

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1148743

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atlasobscura.com%2Fplaces%2Fgoathland-station&psig=AOvVaw3EwFUe65N3cRrBSQhd1w36&ust=1678892945608000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA8QjRxqFwoTCKCUt-DZ2_0CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAk

 

 

[doilum]

1 hour ago, Ken.W said:

 

I mentioned in the previous coal cells thread that I'd seen pics of  a 20t hopper on the covered cells at Goathland.

Have found these two to post links;

(Select link then open from pop-up menu for the)

 

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1148743

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atlasobscura.com%2Fplaces%2Fgoathland-station&psig=AOvVaw3EwFUe65N3cRrBSQhd1w36&ust=1678892945608000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA8QjRxqFwoTCKCUt-DZ2_0CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAk

 

 

Many thanks. Construction was due to start tomorow. Fortunately I can put off the walled structure until our next fill group meeting.

Edited March 14, 2023 by doilum

[Michael Hodgson]

They didn't transport lime in those NER hoppers did they ?

[Ken.W]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They didn't transport lime in those NER hoppers did they ?

 

It still doesn't seem to have been established which wagons the NER used for the lime traffic, was just showing the roofs were high enough for the 20t hoppers.

On the drops it would have to have been some sort of hopper or bottom discharge wagon though - bear in mind that on the drops, outside of the rails was boarded for staff walkways so side door wagons wouldn't be suitable.

[Morello Cherry]

On 12/03/2023 at 14:00, Nick Holliday said:

One thing we may be overlooking is that, certainly in the Weald, in south east England, according to this piece in the Sussex Industrial Archaeological Society journal, http://www.sussexias.co.uk/articles/articles_lime_kilns.htm it was normal for each farm to have its own simple kiln, and they would burn their lime as required, using chalk from up to 12 miles away. I suspect that the NER wagons were used to carry limestone, which would be hauled away from the station to the farm in open carts. Transporting burnt lime in open wagons seems fraught with problems, and would probably require some form of specialised flooring to prevent rot. Otherwise the lime would be bagged, as it would be in the vans, but for agricultural use this would not be too sensible given the quantities that would be required to treat fields.

 

I am not so sure. This is what Garnett says in 1912. I am uncertain as to how much lime would actually be needed per acre. Lime was obviously declining in use by the turn of the century with other alternatives giving better returns. (There is a discussion in another text about the cost of transporting dung from London to extract the ammonia vs the cost of extracting the same amount from guano and concluding that for amounts needed and costs concerned guano gives you the best yield and is the cheapest).

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Morello Cherry

[Andy Hayter]

I am still struggling to believe that unslaked lime would be dropped from a bottom discharge wagon into a cell.  Even if most of the product were lumps there would be enough dust to choke or blind anyone in the vicinity. It is extremely corrosive and binds with any moisture (eyes, throat and lungs) to form a very alkaline calcium hydroxide.

[doilum]

12 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

It still doesn't seem to have been established which wagons the NER used for the lime traffic, was just showing the roofs were high enough for the 20t hoppers.

On the drops it would have to have been some sort of hopper or bottom discharge wagon though - bear in mind that on the drops, outside of the rails was boarded for staff walkways so side door wagons wouldn't be suitable.

No,.at some point circa early 1940s, the covered cells had the building removed presumably as the lime traffic had ceased. The drops went single track about the same time.

 

[doilum]

10 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

I am not so sure. This is what Garnett says in 1912. I am uncertain as to how much lime would actually be needed per acre. Lime was obviously declining in use by the turn of the century with other alternatives giving better returns. (There is a discussion in another text about the cost of transporting dung from London to extract the ammonia vs the cost of extracting the same amount from guano and concluding that for amounts needed and costs concerned guano gives you the best yield and is the cheapest).

 

 

 

 

Many thanks. This is excellent education.