Private owner furniture containers

[magmouse]

I am looking for information about furniture containers, owned by furniture removals companies in the late 19th and early 20th century (please note this is not about the railway-owned containers introduced generally in the later 1920s).

 

I have found a few photographs, including some linked below, and I have seen @wenlock's kit build, but it would be great to have links or information about pictures in books that I haven't yet found. In particular, information about dimensions and - ideally - a drawing would be most helpful.

 

Thanks for any leads people can offer -

 

Nick.

 

 

A Pickfords example:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd2619.htm

 

 

https://www.steampicturelibrary.com/locomotives/steam-standard-gauge-locomotives/saddletank-no2734-c1910-18237945.html?mp=2

 

A fine example on an LNWR 1-plank open: https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p148651598/h792970bb#h792970bb

 

Wenlock's build:

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Have you seen pictures of C & G Ayres of Reading?

e.g.

https://anticsonline.uk/Category/Dapol-Conflat-Wagons_N1707

 

[WFPettigrew]

I am sure this came up somewhere on here in the past, possibly relating to a big firm in Liverpool - but various searches have come to naught.

 

 

@Compound2632 does this ring any bells with you, as the most likely source perhaps??

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

[magmouse]

Thanks, Keith. Yes, a C & G Ayres container appears in a picture in GWR Good Services, Part 2A, pages 10-11, and an excerpt of that picture is on @Mikkel's blog here (scroll down a way):

 

 

Livery details are helpful, but it is the physical construction and dimensions I am especially keen to learn more about. I will probably end up creating a fictional livery, but it's certainly useful to get a feel for texts, layout, etc from prototype examples.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

1 minute ago, WFPettigrew said:

I am sure this came up somewhere on here in the past, possibly relating to a big firm in Liverpool - but various searches have come to naught.

 

 

@Compound2632 does this ring any bells with you, as the most likely source perhaps??

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

Thanks, Neil - I did do a trawl of the forum for 'container' but didn't come up with much relevant to my particular interest, other than Wenlock's and Mikkel's blogs, linked above. It is quite possible my search skills failed me, however...

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Have you seen pictures of C & G Ayres of Reading?

 

Never mind that Dapol abomination, here's the real thing at Reading Vastern Road yard, c. 1905 (@magmouse beat me to it there with his link to @Mikkel's blog):

 

 

This Isaiah Gadd container was built by Gloucester RC&W Co. in 1897 is written up in John Arkell's Private Owner Wagons of the South East (Lightmoor, 2016). Gadd was a coal merchant as well as being in furniture removals and antiques; C&G Ayres were also coal merchants but are now exclusively removals - we had a move done by them back in 2002.

 

[Embedded link to HMRS photo ref ACH400.]

 

These two containers seem to be of similar construction, with diagonal boarding. Evidently an established concept by the late 1890s.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

@Compound2632 does this ring any bells with you, as the most likely source perhaps?

 

Sorry, not for any Liverpool firm that I can recall.

[magmouse]

Thanks, Stephen - the Gadd one is new to me. Does John Arkell offer any dimensions? There seems to be a fairly standard design here, with the diagonal planking, lifting points, etc.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Does John Arkell offer any dimensions?

 

No. I was just thinking about that, though. It seems to me that they must be designed to fit in an ordinary open wagon of the period, so no more than 14' 6" long by 7' 0" wide over extremities. 

[magmouse]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No. I was just thinking about that, though. It seems to me that they must be designed to fit in an ordinary open wagon of the period, so no more than 14' 6" long by 7' 0" wide over extremities. 

 

Yes - if I can't get any specific dimensions, I can work up a design that will be reasonably accurate based on that logic plus photos. The Gadd photo is nearly side-on, so I can get height from that, based on a supposed length.

[phil_sutters]

I have found quite a few photos of road vehicles, both steam and petrol powered, with containers on the back, as well as some on railway wagons. They are not my copyright, but I can PM them to you.

I am a bit lax about true scale - if it looks OK..... but here is one I prepared earlier! As usual, things look a bit rougher on a big screen.

Edited March 14, 2023 by phil_sutters

[magmouse]

Thanks, Phil - these look great, and help with my thinking about liveries and texts. and, yes, any pictures you can PM would be gratefully received.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

Thinking a little more about dimensions, in the LNWR Society photo you linked to, the container is sitting in a D1 1-plank wagon, 15' 6" over headstocks, so 15' inside; it looks to me as though there's a bit of waggle room inside, so I would estimate that the container is 14' 6" long, as I previously guessed. In the photo with the saddle tank, the container seems to be considerably shorter than the wagon but I think that's because it's a long wagon. (Aren't you making one of those?) However, the angle of the ropes suggests that, if the container is sitting centrally in the wagon, it must be a bit narrower than the inside width of the wagon - say 6' 6"?

[magmouse]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Thinking a little more about dimensions, in the LNWR Society photo you linked to, the container is sitting in a D1 1-plank wagon, 15' 6" over headstocks, so 15' inside; it looks to me as though there's a bit of waggle room inside, so I would estimate that the container is 14' 6" long, as I previously guessed. In the photo with the saddle tank, the container seems to be considerably shorter than the wagon but I think that's because it's a long wagon. (Aren't you making one of those?) However, the angle of the ropes suggests that, if the container is sitting centrally in the wagon, it must be a bit narrower than the inside width of the wagon - say 6' 6"?

Good thinking - thank you. I’ll draw one up that size and see what it looks like. And, yes, I have an 18ft over headstocks GWR 1-planker on the workbench, making rather slow progress, which I want to make a container for - hence the enquiry here.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

This photograph:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60586]

 

was the cover image of Midland Record No. 1 but cropped to exclude the wagon with container... I'm sure I've seen the full photo in print somewhere. The container appears to be loaded on a D333 traction wagon, 20 ft over headstocks, with the flat part of the floor 14 ft long by 8' 8" with. The floor of one of those was a nominal 3' 1" above rail level (presumably a bit less when loaded). The top of the container is below the top of the vans, which were 11' or thereabouts overall height. The doorway of the vans was 6' high, with height to eves about 10' 3", So I think 6' would be a good estimate for the height of the side of the container, maybe 7' to top of roof. The vans are 7' 5" wide over end pillars; the container looks a good bit narrower - I'm coming down to 6' or less. So these containers are getting smaller, in my mind at least: 14 ft x 6 ft side (7ft overall) x 5 ft 6 in - 6 ft wide.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

This photograph:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60586]

 

was the cover image of Midland Record No. 1 but cropped to exclude the wagon with container... I'm sure I've seen the full photo in print somewhere. The container appears to be loaded on a D333 traction wagon, 20 ft over headstocks, with the flat part of the floor 14 ft long by 8' 8" with. The floor of one of those was a nominal 3' 1" above rail level (presumably a bit less when loaded). The top of the container is below the top of the vans, which were 11' or thereabouts overall height. The doorway of the vans was 6' high, with height to eves about 10' 3", So I think 6' would be a good estimate for the height of the side of the container, maybe 7' to top of roof. The vans are 7' 5" wide over end pillars; the container looks a good bit narrower - I'm coming down to 6' or less. So these containers are getting smaller, in my mind at least: 14 ft x 6 ft side (7ft overall) x 5 ft 6 in - 6 ft wide.

 

Great, thank you - that's a very helpful analysis. This picture in particular emphasises how much smaller than a van body this type of container were. This view is also the closest to a square-on end view I have found, I think, so even though it is quite small, it will be helpful in getting the proportions correct, especially the roof curve.

 

When I get time over the next day or two, I'll draw this up and share for comment.

 

Nick.

 

[magmouse]

I realised, through this discussion, I hadn't done a comprehensive search of the HMRS photo library, which turns up the following (pictures are embedded links):

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/ach832-shirer-haddon-cheltenham-furniture-container-suspended-r3l-house-furnishers-removal-contracto.html

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/-acg805--pocock-h-c--eastbourne--furniture-container--op--1902-f3r-with-lifting-gear.html

 

Both were built by the Gloucester RCW Co.

 

There are also several pictures of furniture pantechnicons (horse-drawn road vehicles), which are another - related - story.

 

Nick.

[phil_sutters]

PM on its way. These two are of interest as I live near Eastbourne and have ancestors from Cheltenham. The thing about furniture removals is that people did move anywhere in the country, for all manner of reasons, so one could legitimately make any that take your fancy and have it arrive at your goods yard. The common problem is that there are few clues to the liveries' colours, unless one can find company information about them.

Phil 

[Compound2632]

Continuing to think about this (sorry), it seems not unreasonable to take the LMS-built containers as a point of reference.these came in all shapes and sizes but type K was specifically for furniture traffic:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways lnwrcs2124, dated 3 Feb 1932.]

 

These were 15' 2.25" long x 6' 10.5" wide over body x 7' 10.5" tall overall, with doors at one end only. These are larger dimensions than we've been estimating for the pre-grouping examples but were presumably a size the removals trade could handle by the early 1930s. K37 was one of a batch of 99 built at Earlestown in 1932, so if the date given for the photo is correct, it hasn't been in traffic long but has already got a bit scruffy. [Ref. R.J. Essery, LMS Wagons Vol. 2, fig. 111.]

 

Perhaps the most relevant information is that they had a carrying capacity of 3 tons and a tare weight of 1-9-2; a smaller container would be a bit less but by choosing to model a wagon with container, you are committing yourself to equipping Netherport with a crane of 5 tons capacity or to modelling a traffic drepartment travelling crane of that capacity.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Compound2632

[phil_sutters]

Having commented about livery colour identification difficulties, I have unearthed this photo of a restored Bishop & Sons steam lorry and container I took in 2013. The commercial vehicles preservation groups may well have other useful information. (Is that an enthusiast, in the purple shirt having spotted what he thinks is an out of period part?)

Edited March 14, 2023 by phil_sutters

[magmouse]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Continuing to think about this (sorry)

 

Don't be sorry - it's all grist to the mill! Yes, the LMS type is also a helpful reference, especially as this photo gives a clear view of the end doors and associated metalwork, which is mostly seen at a distance or very obliquely in other views.

 

There is more metalwork on the sides, too, on this type, compared with the earlier PO containers. Either the metal structure has moved from the inside to the outside, or additional reinforcing has been introduced as the containers got larger.

 

It's a good point about the crane. My plan for Netherport is still pretty hazy, since I don't know what space I will eventually have for it, but I am thinking the focus will be on a small passenger facility, quayside and engineering works, with the railway goods yard mostly off stage. The issue of a crane might therefore not arise, but it's work me keeping it in mind.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

a restored Bishop & Sons steam lorry and container I took in 2013.

 

A bit of googling suggests that this vehicle belongs to Bishop's Move and that it's a Foden type HH of 1929, rated to carry 5 tons (see above). The container's got diagonal boarding but how big is it and when was it built?

 

Here's a link to a modeller's drawing of what appears to be the same type. Says 1:72 scale but without a marked dimension...

 

A photo of a similar combo:

 

 

[https://landships.activeboard.com/t41212210/foden-steam-wagon-question-for-lorry-specialists/.]

 

The construction of this container looks a bit different, with horizontal beading, though still diagonal boarding. I suspect that with these containers, there are two layers of boarding, at about right angles, giving the sides their strength, with not much other framing. the bodywork is effectively a cover for a flat bed - think how flimsy the sides of modern small lorry are.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Compound2632

[Nick Holliday]

This photo demonstrates that there was no fixed design, size or livery!

Possibly taken at Eastbourne, from background, or perhaps Fratton, based on owner.

[magmouse]

Thanks, Nick - this is a great photo. Some of the height variation probably comes from the wagons - the SE&CR one nearest the camera seems to be quite down on its springs. Even so, there seem to be at least two types, a smaller (possibly older?) one with the lighter coloured background to the name, and the others.

 

Nick

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Possibly taken at Eastbourne, from background, or perhaps Fratton, based on owner.

 

An extract from this photo, illustrating SE&CR No. 11925 and stated to have been taken at Eastbourne in 1906, appears as plate 180 in G. Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 3 (OPC, 2000). It was built as LC&DR No. 313, a low floor road vehicle truck* - the floor was only 3' 9" above rail level and the centre line of buffers 3' 3½" above rail level, hence the "down on its springs" look, which it isn't. The remainder are LB&SC machinery trucks with buffers at the usual nominal 3' 5" above rail level, the full photo being reproduced op. cit. Vol. 2 plate 96.

 

*"For Highway Vehicles" according to the inscription on its side.