Private owner furniture containers

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

a copy of the image of the train at Woodland on the FR's Coniston branch

 

If you know the dimension of the cab of engine No. 88, then by projection you can have a good stab at the end dimensions of the container. It's obviously a good bit narrower than the wagon.

 

That looks like a pantechnicon of the same firm behind; a shame we can't see what type of wagon it is loaded on. It looks as though this combination of container on an ordinary low-sided open and pantechnicon on a traction wagon or similar was fairly common.

[WFPettigrew]

11 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

That definitely looks like the LHS of a 'B' to me!   What else is it likely to be?

 

Thanks Jim - it might be, but on zooming in on the original scan, I am not so sure... 

 

I think the end of the pantechnicon has 3 rows of lettering.  The top one on an arc, then two straight ones below SPENCER BROS above LIVERPOOL.  

 

I have tried to grab a zoomed in version as certainly when I look at pictures on RMWeb its hard to zoom in on them.  To me the first curved letter looks like two parallel lines with a flat top.  So like a Greek pi, but without the serifs either side.   Or Stonehenge.  But on a slope!

[magmouse]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It's obviously a good bit narrower than the wagon.

 

Yes - more so than I have presumed up to this point.

 

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

this combination of container on an ordinary low-sided open and pantechnicon on a traction wagon

 

Yes, and on the road it is seen with a steam lorry carrying the container and towing the pantechnicon. I would guess this combo comes in with the arrival of the stream lorry (date?), though containers are seen on flatbed horse-drawn vehicles.

 

Nick.

[WFPettigrew]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

know the dimension of the cab of engine No. 88

 

Frustratingly whilst there is a drawing on the CRA website of the later but not final variant of Pettigrew's rebuilds of the Sharp Stewart 0-6-0s, that is a weight drawing that only shows the side elevation.  Obviously the frames and likely footplate would be the same as the original Sharpies, but sadly there isn't a drawing of them either on there. 

 

I know that FR20, which is effectively a shorter Sharpie, feels narrower than later locos.  A quick measure of a scale drawing of 20 suggests it is c 7'8 across the bufferbeam.  But the Sharpies may have had a different width.

 

Maybe @apl31 knows more?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Caley Jim]

30 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

I think the end of the pantechnicon has 3 rows of lettering.  The top one on an arc, then two straight ones below SPENCER BROS above LIVERPOOL.  

My apologies, @WFPettigrew.  I was looking at the front container! 🙄  Mea culpa!

 

Jim

[apl31]

Regarding width of footplate. There is a 1866 GA drawing of original engines. I cannot see a specific dimension but it look like 4' 1 1/2" between frames and 2 x 1' 6 3/4" footplate (which appear flush with inside frame)  = 7' 3" . The weight diagram for one of the later rebuilds states 7' 3". I assume those 4 wheel tenders were standard and there is a GA drawing showing width as 7' 3". 

I don't have a width dimension for rebuilt cabs  but original side sheets were inset ~3 1/4" from footplate edge if that helps.

Aidan

[apl31]

If it helps estimation, the tender tank sides are 5' 6" wide

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, apl31 said:

If it helps estimation, the tender tank sides are 5' 6" wide

 

... as it has to fit between the bearing springs, which are centred on the (presumably 6' 6" centres) journals. 

 

I reckon the container looks slightly wider - confirming the 6 ft estimate.

[Edwardian]

19 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Hi All  

 

Sorry this has taken a while, but I do now have a copy of the image of the train at Woodland on the FR's Coniston branch to share with you.

 

This is shared here with permission of the CRA, but it is a copyright image - credit Cumbrian Railways Association - Ken Norman collection.

 

For those of us who know the book, this is a much better resolution rendition.  But although now amongst other things the pantechnicon on the second wagon is clearer, other than supporting my earlier idea that the top row of lettering on the end is on an arc, to follow the roofline, I still have no idea what it might have said, given the only visible "letter" doesn't really look like a letter!?!   Any thoughts?

 

And any other observations?  There are no obvious clues as to the parentage of the 1 plank with the container on it?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

Styled themselves (in 1904) as 'Spencer Bros. Removal and Storage Contractors, Liverpool', but I don't think that necessarily helps with the mystery curving text, for instances, if that was 'R' for removals, it's missing a bit!

 

[Compound2632]

For the benefit of their Russian customers:

 

Ливерпуль ...

[Peterem]

Hi all,

If you can get your hands on a copy of "Horse-drawn Heavy Goods Vehicles" by John Thompson (1980, ISBN 0 950577 529), it mostly contains images from the Bristol Wagon & Carriage Works Catalogue 1894. It has a large-scale drawing of what the catalogue calls a "Sling Furniture Van". Given that the van body is noted as easily convertible to a flatbed tilt truck and the box body has diagonal strapping and lifting eyes like the image from Frasers up the thread, it's pretty clear the"sling box" is an early container. The key gives dimensions smaller than those estimated so far, 15 feet long by 5ft 5in wide. No idea if the BW&CW used standard dimensions or made other sizes of containers, but something to bear in mind when estimating dimensions from photos.

 

Incidentally, the drawing gave a sensible explanation for the diagonal planking. If the strapping for the lifting eyes rises from the bottom corners of the container towards the centre line at an angle of 45 degrees, it is logical for the planking to be at the same angle on the other diagonal, so it will always be perpendicular to the strapping.

 

Facinating thread,

Peter, Sidcup

[WFPettigrew]

2 hours ago, apl31 said:

1866 GA drawing of original engines

Ooh useful to know!   Is this within the CRA collection (like the iceberg, the large bit of it that is below the waterline of non-presence on the website)?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[magmouse]

11 minutes ago, Peterem said:

If you can get your hands on a copy of "Horse-drawn Heavy Goods Vehicles" by John Thompson (1980, ISBN 0 950577 529)

 

Thank you for that reference - I have just ordered a copy. It seems to be readily available, if anyone else needs/wants one.

 

Nick.

[apl31]

Dont know if its on website but drawing reference 060 1866 ss527E.

Yes its in CRA collection

Edited April 6, 2023 by apl31
addition

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

For the benefit of their Russian customers:

 

Ливерпуль ...

 

An unsanctioned response!

[Tom Burnham]

I was just reading an account of a road traffic accident in Folkestone in 1923 (so technically not pre-Grouping) which involved a Hays Wharf Cartage Co. lorry which had driven down from London carrying a "lift van" with 4 1/2 tons of meat for a local firm.  The driver lost control on a sharp drop and went into the window of Boots the Chemist, doing considerable damage (they should have sent the consignment by Southern Railway (SE&C section)).  Anyway, I looked up "lift van" and it was basically what was known as a container not much later.  Ones carrying meat were insulated. 

 

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

 Anyway, I looked up "lift van" and it was basically what was known as a container not much later.  Ones carrying meat were insulated. 

 

 

Here, presumably? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_and_lift_van

 

The dimensions given there:

 

Quote

a sturdy wooden box 11 ft 6 in (3.51 m) to 17 ft (5.2 m) long, 6 ft 3 in (1.91 m) wide and 6 ft 6 in (1.98 m) high to the centre of the roof. It had two wrought iron straps passing down the sides and under the bottom, having a sling shackled to holes in the top ends of the straps so that the whole and its contents could be lifted by crane

 

more-or-less fit with our earlier deductions.

 

The OED has 1955 as its earliest citation, which just goes to show that lexicographers don't read enough technical literature.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Compound2632

[Tom Burnham]

Yes, that was the source.  The 1923 local newspaper report didn't feel it necessary to explain what a lift van was, so I imagine the term was in general use before then.

[kevinlms]

On 18/03/2023 at 08:43, Compound2632 said:

 

Adrian had noticed that too, attributing it to the semi-mythical oxalic paint.

 

The lettering on the solebar at the edge of the photo will be the tare weight.

The Oxalic paint is mentioned here.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1713a.htm

 

The wagons all appear to be more or less identical in colour, but the lettering is clearly not, with clean and dirty examples.

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

The Oxalic paint is mentioned here.

 

No doubt drawing on the statement in Midland Style.

[sir douglas]

doing little of my own research, some adverts from Whites Sheffield & Rotherham 1911 directory and Kelly's North & East Yorkshire 1913

 

Simpson of Sheffield

J

 

Ward of Scarborough

 

Wentworth of Bridlington

 

Pepper of Leeds

 

a model Pantechnicon on the back cover of a 1970's model magazine

 

some ive just found which i think i'll use for my model, George Ward of Harrogate

[Neal Ball]

This is a fascinating topic, thats for all the details.