District Line Q stock

[Guest]

A first glimpse of the District Line 'Q' stock soon to be added to the Eastleigh Model Railway range of 3D printed rolling stock.  Prototype Q23 and Q27 motors are seen here on test, Q35 and Q38 trailer prototypes are currently being assembled.  The production Q23s will have moulded handrails and improved hopper ventilators above the windows, similar to the Q27.  More anon.

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Guest
Typo

[roythebus1]

It looks good, I hope your dimensions for the Q23 are better than the resin kit I'm trying to finish at the moment! It's 3mm too sort in one of the window bays! 

 

I'll have a couple of them when they're available. I used to work on them in th early 1970s.

 

[teeinox]

Nice to see!

 

The Q27 looks really good.

 

Though from the photo, the roof of the Q23 looks too low, the same fault as on the resin model: it took a lot of sweat to rebuild the roof on that model.

[Erixtar1992]

Ooooh. This looks interesting. Would like to find out a bit more about them!

[Guest]

20 hours ago, teeinox said:

Nice to see!

 

The Q27 looks really good.

 

Though from the photo, the roof of the Q23 looks too low, the same fault as on the resin model: it took a lot of sweat to rebuild the roof on that model.

One of the advantages of 3D printing is that mistakes, once identified, are relatively easy to put right so now is a really good time to make sure of points such as this.  The dimensions were taken from Ian Huntley's book of LU sub-surface stock, which has the Q23 overall height as 12ft 3 ½ and the Q27 as 12ft 3.

Attached is a screenshot of the Q23 showing major dimensions in mm at 4mm to 1 ft scale.  If any of them are wrong, or if there are any other dimensions people would like checked, please let me know - we can use the collective wisdom of this forum to make sure the final kit will be accurate.

[teeinox]

On 18/03/2023 at 16:50, 34017Ilfracombe said:

One of the advantages of 3D printing is that mistakes, once identified, are relatively easy to put right so now is a really good time to make sure of points such as this.  The dimensions were taken from Ian Huntley's book of LU sub-surface stock, which has the Q23 overall height as 12ft 3 ½ and the Q27 as 12ft 3.

Attached is a screenshot of the Q23 showing major dimensions in mm at 4mm to 1 ft scale.  If any of them are wrong, or if there are any other dimensions people would like checked, please let me know - we can use the collective wisdom of this forum to make sure the final kit will be accurate.

Thank you for your reply and particularly the diagram.

 

My source of information seems to be the same as yours, Ian Huntley’s book “The London Underground Surface Stock Planbook 1863-1959”.  It was the book I consulted when working to improve the Radley Models resin kit of the Q23.

 

So, I did some measurements using his diagram of the front elevation.  I measured the distance from the bottom of the panelling to the top of the horizontal moulding that runs across the front elevation directly above the end door.  That came to 27.3mm, pretty much like the 27.2mm that you quote.  I then measured the distance from above that moulding to the top of the roof.  That was 8.7mm, different from the 7mm on your diagram.  The ratio between the two is about 3.1: 1.  So I measured the photos he has in the book as well, and the ratio was similar, 3.09 in one case and 3.14 in the other.

 

The profile of the lower part of the roof leading up to the clerestory (there must be a technical term for it!) is tricky to get right, as I found out.  It springs directly almost vertically from the cantrail/gutter, quicky bends sharply, and then gradually flattens out as it goes toward the clerestory.

 

Hope these comments are helpful.

 

teeinox

 

[Lord of Narnia]

Watch out for Ian Huntley’s book it is known to have inaccuracies. 
 

The models look ok. Can anything be done to remove the print lines on the side of the body?

 

Radley models was about to rerelease the Q27 kit and the Q35 after. If the business continues they will be made available again if there is sufficient demand.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, teeinox said:

Thank you for your reply and particularly the diagram.

 

My source of information seems to be the same as yours, Ian Huntley’s book “The London Underground Surface Stock Planbook 1863-1959”.  It was the book I consulted when working to improve the Radley Models resin kit of the Q23.

 

So, I did some measurements using his diagram of the front elevation.  I measured the distance from the bottom of the panelling to the top of the horizontal moulding that runs across the front elevation directly above the end door.  That came to 27.3mm, pretty much like the 27.2mm that you quote.  I then measured the distance from above that moulding to the top of the roof.  That was 8.7mm, different from the 7mm on your diagram.  The ratio between the two is about 3.1: 1.  So I measured the photos he has in the book as well, and the ratio was similar, 3.09 in one case and 3.14 in the other.

 

The profile of the lower part of the roof leading up to the clerestory (there must be a technical term for it!) is tricky to get right, as I found out.  It springs directly almost vertically from the cantrail/gutter, quicky bends sharply, and then gradually flattens out as it goes toward the clerestory.

 

Hope these comments are helpful.

 

teeinox

 

 

You are right!  I assumed the diagrams in Ian Huntley's book are all 4mm scale but the 'G'/Q23 is actually about 3% larger than that so, for example, the overall height of 12ft 3½ inches works out at 49.17mm in 4mm scale but in the printed diagram it is 50.62mm.  So, having scaled intermediate dimensions from the book I ended up with a discrepancy against the overall height when I got to the roof.  By my revised calculations the roof height should be 8.2mm, not 7.0mm as on the prototype model and the rest of the car needs to be scaled down proportionately.

 

The drawing of the 'K'/Q27 in Ian Huntley's book is correct for 4mm/ft and the 'O'/P'/Q38 is about right so it seems to be only the Q23 where there is a significant discrepancy - my guess is that the problem arose when Ian Huntley's drawing was reproduced for printing.

Thank you for pointing out the problem - back to the drawing board!

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Guest

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Lord of Narnia said:

Watch out for Ian Huntley’s book it is known to have inaccuracies. 
 

The models look ok. Can anything be done to remove the print lines on the side of the body?

 

Radley models was about to rerelease the Q27 kit and the Q35 after. If the business continues they will be made available again if there is sufficient demand.

 

I don't know that there is much that can be done about the print lines, though I have to say they seem far worse in my pictures than they do in reality.  My designs are printed by Tim Evans at CW Railways on a top-of-the-range machine so as far as I know this is as good as it gets with current 3D printing technology - I'd be interested to hear about your and other peoples' experiences with this issue.

 

I am also experimenting with alternative paint finishes to see whether the print lines can be mitigated that way.  These prototypes were spray painted and a spray gun will, of course, apply paint evenly over the print lines so I intend to try brush painting a first coat in the hope that it will fill the troughs and smooth out the ridges.

 

Other suggestions welcome!

 

[teeinox]

48 minutes ago, 34017Ilfracombe said:

 

You are right!  I assumed the diagrams in Ian Huntley's book are all 4mm scale but the 'G'/Q23 is actually about 3% larger than that so, for example, the overall height of 12ft 3½ inches works out at 49.17mm in 4mm scale but in the printed diagram it is 50.62mm.  So, having scaled intermediate dimensions from the book I ended up with a discrepancy against the overall height when I got to the roof.  By my revised calculations the roof height should be 8.2mm, not 7.0mm as on the prototype model and the rest of the car needs to be scaled down proportionately.

 

The drawing of the 'K'/Q27 in Ian Huntley's book is correct for 4mm/ft and the 'O'/P'/Q38 is about right so it seems to be only the Q23 where there is a significant discrepancy - my guess is that the problem arose when Ian Huntley's drawing was reproduced for printing.

Thank you for pointing out the problem - back to the drawing board!

 

 

 

Yes, I too had detected that the drawing was slightly oversize.  I don't know where he got the drawings from, but there are other problems with them too.  If you look at the cantrail of the Q27, it is drawn as two pieces of beading, one overlaying the other.  I think that is what you may have implemented on your model.  That arrangement was right for the Q35, but as photos of the Q27 show, they had a simple one piece structure, possibly rather deeper than his drawing portrays.

 

As they say, the devil is in the detail!

 

Regards, teeinox

[roythebus1]

I have the Skinley blueprint for the Q23 on my workbench at the moment. I also have the LT drawings for the Q38, 1938 tube stock motor coach and a Dreadnought. these are I think to 1:12 scale and kitchen table size.

[Guest]

Thanks to all for your constructive feedback.  Screenshots of the revised Q23 body attached for any further comments.  If all is well I will have the revised Q23 STL files 3D printed and construct a revised prototype, just to make sure that everything fits in reality and not just on a computer screen.  The bits for the Q35 and Q38 trailer prototypes are on my workbench and should be assembled in the next few weeks - more anon!

 

[Matloughe]

Just a question,

 

Further down the line, are you planning on making these available to purchase through a third party, like CW Railways?

 

So you have plans to do any more stock after what you have here?

 

I only ask as our niche modelling preference has been rocked with the news at Radley Models and I am sure it's not only me but others feel a little unsure of the future of modelling our favourite network.

 

Kind Regards,

Gary

 

[Guest]

Hi Gary

 

I have a joint venture with Tim at CW Railways to develop and market 'niche' models such as these.  You can see the existing range at our Eastleigh Model Rail website (eastleighmodelrail.co.uk).  As the name implies, our focus until now has been on Southern Electrics and more recently on Isle of Wight steam stock but I have always had a side interest in the London Underground network.

 

I have been aware of the Radley Models product range and have wanted to avoid competing head-to-head but the sad death of the proprietor (who I did not know) may alter that situation, depending on whether the business is taken forward by new owners.  If Radley Models does cease trading and if the Q stock is well received I would certainly be interested in extending the range.

 

The biggest elephant in the room is price.  3D printing is not cheap, which obviously affects demand, but I do not want to get into batch production as that involves an upfront capital outlay that may never be recouped.  The Q stock may work out marginally cheaper than an Eastleigh Southern Electric, simply because the cars are shorter and there is therefore less printing and so so less material and less machine time involved, but realistically there is not going to be all that much in it.  An Eastleigh Isle of Wight carriage costs £125, which is perhaps a fair indication of where we will end up once we have done the sums.

 

Another issue is the availability of accurate dimensional drawings.  Ian Huntley's book has been invaluable for sub-surface stock (despite the scaling issues with some drawings) but even with these, some of the underframe detail for the Q stock has involved guesswork based on photos where everything below floor level is either in deep shadow or hidden by a platform!  I am not aware of a similar publication to Huntley's for tube stock but maybe you and the LU modelling fraternity can help?

 

In the meantime, thank you for your interest in the project!

Stephen

 

 

[teeinox]

On 25/03/2023 at 17:06, 34017Ilfracombe said:

Thanks to all for your constructive feedback.  Screenshots of the revised Q23 body attached for any further comments.  If all is well I will have the revised Q23 STL files 3D printed and construct a revised prototype, just to make sure that everything fits in reality and not just on a computer screen.  The bits for the Q35 and Q38 trailer prototypes are on my workbench and should be assembled in the next few weeks - more anon!

 

Looking good: looks like a Q23!  Some points.

 

May I suggest that the curve of the lower part of the roof is more pronounced than in your drawing. Looking at photographs, the curve seems to end at the clerestory proper almost, but not quite, horizontal.

 

Fan-plates.  The diagram seems to suggest that all the marker lights are covered except the middle one on the left hand row.  That had a double fan-plate: one to cover the lamp, the other for a red filter when the Q23 was running as last car.  With LED lighting, many of us would be tempted to drill out apertures to provide each marker light with an individual LED, but in doing so would both destroy the fan-plate moulding and have to fabricate a replacement to the side.  To give a choice of destinations, would a good solution be to provide a sprue of fan-plates as a separate moulding so that the purchaser could add them to get the head-code they want?

 

The cables seem to be moulded on.  Many of us would want to have those as separate items, which would leave us with the chore of removing them from the moulding, especially if we wanted to open the fan-plates on the two right-hand marker lights.  Moulding the detail where they attach onto the body would be fine.  Bear in mind that Q stock was handed, and that this “inner” position of cabling makes the car a westbound driving car.  This is O.K.  I think that in their latter days all were westbound.

[Delta_Who]

On 26/03/2023 at 16:18, 34017Ilfracombe said:

Hi Gary

 

I have a joint venture with Tim at CW Railways to develop and market 'niche' models such as these.  You can see the existing range at our Eastleigh Model Rail website (eastleighmodelrail.co.uk).  As the name implies, our focus until now has been on Southern Electrics and more recently on Isle of Wight steam stock but I have always had a side interest in the London Underground network.

 

I have been aware of the Radley Models product range and have wanted to avoid competing head-to-head but the sad death of the proprietor (who I did not know) may alter that situation, depending on whether the business is taken forward by new owners.  If Radley Models does cease trading and if the Q stock is well received I would certainly be interested in extending the range.

 

The biggest elephant in the room is price.  3D printing is not cheap, which obviously affects demand, but I do not want to get into batch production as that involves an upfront capital outlay that may never be recouped.  The Q stock may work out marginally cheaper than an Eastleigh Southern Electric, simply because the cars are shorter and there is therefore less printing and so so less material and less machine time involved, but realistically there is not going to be all that much in it.  An Eastleigh Isle of Wight carriage costs £125, which is perhaps a fair indication of where we will end up once we have done the sums.

 

Another issue is the availability of accurate dimensional drawings.  Ian Huntley's book has been invaluable for sub-surface stock (despite the scaling issues with some drawings) but even with these, some of the underframe detail for the Q stock has involved guesswork based on photos where everything below floor level is either in deep shadow or hidden by a platform!  I am not aware of a similar publication to Huntley's for tube stock but maybe you and the LU modelling fraternity can help?

 

In the meantime, thank you for your interest in the project!

Stephen

 

 

 

Try a "Freedom of Information" request to tfl? Or suggest LT Museum archives. They won't give out technical specs for current stock (with exception to Battery locomotives and other modified stock)... but outdated/relegated stock is fairly accessible to gain technical drawings.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Delta_Who

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Delta_Who said:

 

Try a "Freedom of Information" request to tfl? Or suggest LT Museum archives. They won't give out technical specs for current stock (with exception to Battery locomotives and other modified stock)... but outdated/relegated stuck is fairly accessible to gain technical drawings.

Thank you, I'll give the LT Museum archives a try.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, teeinox said:

Looking good: looks like a Q23!  Some points.

 

May I suggest that the curve of the lower part of the roof is more pronounced than in your drawing. Looking at photographs, the curve seems to end at the clerestory proper almost, but not quite, horizontal.

 

Fan-plates.  The diagram seems to suggest that all the marker lights are covered except the middle one on the left hand row.  That had a double fan-plate: one to cover the lamp, the other for a red filter when the Q23 was running as last car.  With LED lighting, many of us would be tempted to drill out apertures to provide each marker light with an individual LED, but in doing so would both destroy the fan-plate moulding and have to fabricate a replacement to the side.  To give a choice of destinations, would a good solution be to provide a sprue of fan-plates as a separate moulding so that the purchaser could add them to get the head-code they want?

 

The cables seem to be moulded on.  Many of us would want to have those as separate items, which would leave us with the chore of removing them from the moulding, especially if we wanted to open the fan-plates on the two right-hand marker lights.  Moulding the detail where they attach onto the body would be fine.  Bear in mind that Q stock was handed, and that this “inner” position of cabling makes the car a westbound driving car.  This is O.K.  I think that in their latter days all were westbound.

 

As you say, the Q23 is modelled as a westbound car and the Q27 is eastbound so as to reflect the Q stock in its final days when all the Q23s were westbound.   We could do fan plates and jumper cables as separate items - it adds cost and complexity but it does, as you say, give individual modellers more options.  What do others think?

 

I think you are right about the roof profile - revised outline attached for comment.

 

[teeinox]

Revised roof line looks perfect!

[roythebus1]

Would my Skinley blueprint be of any assistance?

 

Also, try looking on the FB Distict Line group, and mybe contact Brian Hardy on there, author of several books on LT rolling stock. LT Museum will have photos of all types of rolling stock. I used the LT archive back in the 1970s when I was producing GS Models bus kits. Not only will they have 1/12 scale drawings, but official photos too.

 

Re marker lights, I don't recall the Q23 having a red light or lens on the cab end. I worked on them as a guard 1970-to their withdrawal, but can't remember! I know we had to nesure the oil tail light was lit at all times as everything on them worked on line volts. No line volts, no tail light.  

[roythebus1]

There's also the District Dave website, historic section where you my find more information.

 

Having looked on wiki, there's a view of the LTM Q23 which clearly shows the red light on the back, my memory must have faded. Do a google search, you may find. I've dropped Brian Hardy a note and asked for his help. hopefully he'll come on here in a few days.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Would my Skinley blueprint be of any assistance?

 

Also, try looking on the FB Distict Line group, and mybe contact Brian Hardy on there, author of several books on LT rolling stock. LT Museum will have photos of all types of rolling stock. I used the LT archive back in the 1970s when I was producing GS Models bus kits. Not only will they have 1/12 scale drawings, but official photos too.

 

Re marker lights, I don't recall the Q23 having a red light or lens on the cab end. I worked on them as a guard 1970-to their withdrawal, but can't remember! I know we had to nesure the oil tail light was lit at all times as everything on them worked on line volts. No line volts, no tail light.  

I'd be glad of a copy of any Skinley blueprints you may have and in particular anything that shows underframe detail.  Please email me at stephen.grant747@icloud.com to make arrangements.

 

Interesting that you worked on them as a guard - I seem to recall from somewhere that in rainy weather one could catch quite a packet from a poorly insulated Q23 marker light!

[roythebus1]

I'll email that to you later. I've contacted Brian Hardy, he can't help with underframe photos, he said try the LTM at Acton.

[roythebus1]

Skinly blueprint now emailed, it does'nt show much underframe detail tough. I've had a quick look on the LTM site, there's a photo ref.U3357 that might be helpful. There's a filter on their search engine, I've set that to photos and drawings, but there's a lot to look through. It's not the easiest site to navigate, but with over 42,000 drawings and 44,000 photos on there...ity I never got a full-size drawing of the Q23. As I said, I've got the full LT drawing of the Q38/O/P/R flare-sided car if ever you're thinking of doing one. there's a lot of pics of K stock on the LTM site as well. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

Yes it was possible to get a belt from the marker lights as they were 6 110v bulbs wired in series. If the driver turned the cab light on something else went off to compensate for it! Control circuits and doors were 110v fed from batteries at each end of the train. they charged via light bulbs in series as well!

[Guest]

On 30/03/2023 at 15:38, roythebus1 said:

Skinly blueprint now emailed, it does'nt show much underframe detail tough. I've had a quick look on the LTM site, there's a photo ref.U3357 that might be helpful. There's a filter on their search engine, I've set that to photos and drawings, but there's a lot to look through. It's not the easiest site to navigate, but with over 42,000 drawings and 44,000 photos on there...ity I never got a full-size drawing of the Q23. As I said, I've got the full LT drawing of the Q38/O/P/R flare-sided car if ever you're thinking of doing one. there's a lot of pics of K stock on the LTM site as well. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

Yes it was possible to get a belt from the marker lights as they were 6 110v bulbs wired in series. If the driver turned the cab light on something else went off to compensate for it! Control circuits and doors were 110v fed from batteries at each end of the train. they charged via light bulbs in series as well!

Thank you for the Skinley blueprint - as you say it does not show much underframe detail and what there is does not bear any resemblance to photos.  I have researched the LTM archive and have previously used the U3357 photo for underframe detail, very useful as it shows the other side of the car from the Ian Huntley drawing.

The prototype 3d print for a Q38 trailer is on my workbench at the moment for test assembly.  Again, the underframe detail is based on photos - unsurprisingly there is a lot less under the floor of a trailer than would be the case for a motor coach.  The bogies (sorry - trucks) were fun, though, as were the compound curves of the body!