Southern 0-6-0T Class P Numerals

[ScottW]

I'm looking to re-number a P Class 0-6-0T locomotive and was looking for information regarding the height of the numerals applied to the side tanks.

 

The model will be finished in pre-1937 Maunsell green and during this period I believe the numerals were 1' 6" in height but, looking at a few photographs it looks like some of the class had slightly shorter numerals, as per this photograph of #27. Can anyone tell me the height of these numerals?

 

 

Thank you.

 

Scott

[Graham_Muz]

They are similar to the height used on the Isle of Wight O2s numbers,  when applied to their bunkers, that were twice the Southern lettering height so 13" rather than the standard number height of 18"

Edited March 29, 2023 by Graham_Muz
Grammar

[Nearholmer]

Is that loco painted green, or black?

 

Anyway, photos seem to show some with sensibly sized numbers as per your photo, and others with standard size ones, which look way too big.

[Graham_Muz]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

Is that loco painted green, or black?

 

Anyway, photos seem to show some with sensibly sized numbers as per your photo, and others with standard size ones, which look way too big.

It's green. 

[bécasse]

The photo shows the loco numbered in accordance with the 1923 "grouping" scheme which added a prefix "A" (for Ashford) to its SE&CR number, this letter appearing above the actual number on the tank side which, even though the "A" was much smaller than number figures still required space to be left for it. The numbering scheme changed in 1928 1931 (although the new scheme took several years to fully implement) with the prefix letters disappearing and ex-SECR locos having 1000 added to their pregrouping number (thus this loco became 1027) and ex-LBSCR locos 2000 (and the small number of duplicate list locos were given numbers starting 3xxx). These new numbers, when painted on tank or tender sides, were notably larger than the prefixed numbers initially used from 1923.

Edited March 29, 2023 by bécasse
Date correction!

[ScottW]

Thank you @bécassefor your explanation but I must admit this throws up some confusion. According to Klaus Marx in his book The Wainwright P Tanks, and Wikipedia, the Southern Railway introduced it's new numbering scheme in 1931 when they removed the 'A' and added1000 to all the ex-SECR locomotives numbers.

 

Going back to the pre 1931 numbering system, from photographic evidence it would appear that some of the P Class locomotives had notably larger numbers than others during this period. It also shows that the notably larger numbers were in use before the introduction of the new numbering system.

 

 

[Graham_Muz]

Indeed the renumbering took place  from 1931.

 

The 'E' 'A' and 'B' prefixes were always 3" high.

 

The standard number height with or without the prefix, therefore both pre and post renumbering, was 18" as per your pictured of 323.

As I stated above, in some cases a smaller number was applied to some tank locomotives that was twice the 'Southern' text height therefore 13" 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Graham_Muz

[Graham_Muz]

12 hours ago, bécasse said:

The photo shows the loco numbered in accordance with the 1923 "grouping" scheme which added a prefix "A" (for Ashford) to its SE&CR number, this letter appearing above the actual number on the tank side which, even though the "A" was much smaller than number figures still required space to be left for it. The numbering scheme changed in 1928 (although the new scheme took several years to fully implement) with the prefix letters disappearing and ex-SECR locos having 1000 added to their pregrouping number (thus this loco became 1027) and ex-LBSCR locos 2000 (and the small number of duplicate list locos were given numbers starting 3xxx). These new numbers, when painted on tank or tender sides, were notably larger than the prefixed numbers initially used from 1923.

 

Not quite true, the size of the number was not related to the prefix or the renumbering (from 1931). The standard height was 18" from the outset but a reduced number height 13" was used on some tank locos but not all (or even consistent within the same class).

[Wickham Green too]

13'' numerals are available on the HMRS transfer sheet.

[ScottW]

5 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

Indeed the renumbering took place  from 1931.

 

The 'E' 'A' and 'B' prefixes were always 3" high.

 

The standard number height with or without the prefix, therefore both pre and post renumbering, was 18" as per your pictured of 323.

As I stated above, in some cases a smaller number was applied to some tank locomotives that was twice the 'Southern' text height therefore 13" 

 

Thanks Graham, very informative. I think you have pretty much answered my question.

 

Scott

[bécasse]

Perhaps it is also worth mentioning that the two pioneer members of the class 753 and 754 (subsequently A556 and A557) had taller tanks than the later locos and that this affected the vertical spacing of legend/numbers on the tank side. The locos pictured above all have the slightly squatter tanks.