Gunpowder?

[rovex]

I'm just curious, does anyone know just how much gunpowder traffic there was on the railway?

 

I ask because there seem to be a large number of rtr vans available for the transport of it, far more than they could surely have been on the network at any one time.

[hmrspaul]

In 1966 BR had 207 VB and 38 unfit. By 1977 only reduced to 185 VB and 5 unfit. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=gunpowder 

All gone by 1984 - replaced by airbraked vans including 550 VEA https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/vea. 

 

Paul

Edited April 5, 2023 by hmrspaul

[Wickham Green too]

.... 'gunpowder' is very much a misnomer as other explosives were becoming available by the time the Iron Mink derivative vans appeared !

[rovex]

34 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... 'gunpowder' is very much a misnomer as other explosives were becoming available by the time the Iron Mink derivative vans appeared !

 

Well perhaps, but my point is the number of different models available would probably be sufficient to carry enough explosives to support a small war

[Aire Head]

5 minutes ago, rovex said:

 

Well perhaps, but my point is the number of different models available would probably be sufficient to carry enough explosives to support a small war

 

That could be said about all of RTR.

 

Did you know that merchandise vans were still out numbered by merchandise opens by around 2/1 in 1956? Not based on what is available RTR!

 

Same could be said about railway company stock, based on RTR anyone would think the GWR had the largest amount of goods stock out of the big four but it only had around 10%, about a 5th of the amount owned by the LMS for example.

 

But Vans sell better than opens, GPVs sell well because they are fun and GWR sells better than LMS so therefore the manufacturers make what people want 🤷🏼‍♂️

[KeithMacdonald]

18 minutes ago, rovex said:

Well perhaps, but my point is the number of different models available would probably be sufficient to carry enough explosives to support a small war

 

Yes, but only a small war.

Our resources are much depleted since 1945.

e.g. ROF Bridgwater, closed in 2008

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ordnance

 

[hmrspaul]

Don't overlook that there are non military uses of explosives, such as quarrying, so these vans in small numbers could turn up all over the country. 

 

Getting a balance rolling stock on a layout is very difficult - few want half their stock to be minerals, and that is probably still reasonably true even today with so many bogie open boxes arriving new build from the continent every few weeks. 

 

Paul

[Wickham Green too]

6 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Don't overlook that there are non military uses of explosives, such as quarrying, ...

... and that, apparently, is where black powder IS preferred for a more 'gentle' blast that doesn't shatter brittle rocks like slate or marble.

 

53 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

... vans were still out numbered by merchandise opens by around 2/1 ...

The problem with R.T.R. open wagons is that many - a percentage varying on the load and on common user status at your chosen date - ought to be fitted with R.T.R. tarpaulins ............ which seem in rather short supply.

[C126]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

Did you know that merchandise vans were still out numbered by merchandise opens by around 2/1 in 1956? Not based on what is available RTR!

 

Sorry to be so dim-witted and drift this thread O.T., but I thought (purely from photos) that 'little brown job' vans out-numbered 3/5-plank opens considerably in the 1970's.  If I got the sums correct, the air-braked vans:opens for Speedlink was 1,400 (+550 VEAs):1,300.  If anyone could tell me what the prior proportion was for the last five years of 1970's wagon-load operation, I would be grateful.  Apologies again for asking tangential questions.

[Wickham Green too]

Yep ...... big difference between 1956 and the airbrake era !

[Fat Controller]

From observation, the various Gunpowder Vans were replaced by VDAs on commercial flows, such as that to Black Callerton. VEAs were dedicated to MoD traffic, and not solely explosives; I have been told of loads comprising Dexion shelving and cans of paint.

There is one flow that hasn't been mentioned; that of detonators for railway use. I've no idea where, and by whom, they were manufactured, but they were sent to yards and railway centres around the country.

[The Stationmaster]

33 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

From observation, the various Gunpowder Vans were replaced by VDAs on commercial flows, such as that to Black Callerton. VEAs were dedicated to MoD traffic, and not solely explosives; I have been told of loads comprising Dexion shelving and cans of paint.

There is one flow that hasn't been mentioned; that of detonators for railway use. I've no idea where, and by whom, they were manufactured, but they were sent to yards and railway centres around the country.

The only manufacturer i'm aware of is Claytons of Huddersfield/{emistone.  The boxes ys. ued ti come labelled Clayton, Huddersfield but according their website railway fog signals (their name for what the railway industry in Britain call detonators) were/are actually manufactured at their Pensitone factory.  Among other things the Huddersfield factory produced Karrier road vehicles.

 

Originally they seem to have come from the factory in stour cardbiard bixes conrainunf the indic vidual boxes of dets but thus probably changed during teh 197os when BR's own storage conditions for dest were chab ngede.  Originallt they were sinmply simply in their origina cardnboard box in which they came from the factory although no doubt locations holding larger stocks probably had stronger cupboards in which to store the,

 

But taht all changed when sime of the Irish fellahs dev cided to get back to their previous hab it of trying to blow-up things, and peo[le, in England in the 70s.  S dets had to be kept locked away then not long after taht edict came another stating that they had to be storedin secured *ec x-milirtary) ammunition boxes which also were supposed to kept locked/. Apart from teh gfact that they only contained enough explosive to f damnage your hand rather seriously if one went off when you were holding it the very name was thought likely to attract the sort of olk with an intetest in creating illegal exp;osions so things became that much more secure.  Nind you I always yused to keep a dozen in the boot of the Area PON Call car along wit seb veral sets of flags and several universal point clips  (the weight of which worked wonders for the roadholding and cornering ability of the 1970s Mk1 Escort).    Generally in signalboxes apart from those kept handily available for ready use they were stored in their original boxes in one of the cupboards.

 

And despite what you might have heard they weren't particularly wonderful at helping a stove to draw better when dropped dow the chimney; they could hurt you with flying fragments if you were standing too close when one went off;  and once exploded the remains of the lead clips were useful in railway modelling once you'd collected enough for weighting vehicles.   British dets are distinctly wimpish things in terms of the bang they make compared to their French equivalent. SNCF dets are much louder and the fragments produce a sort of shrapnel which goes much further and much fastere than the bits from a British det hence they were rejected for use on BR following some tests c.1968.

[Wheatley]

They certainly were made at Penistone, in the early 90s we used to get odd consignments brought down to the Red Star office in Barnsley from time to time including quite a large one for the then new-and-about-to-open Manchester Metrolink extension. The factory was a very odd place, it looked like a couple of tin cow sheds half way up a hill. 

 

How they normally sent them out I've no idea, I presume they either went by road or were collected by the main Red Star office in Sheffield. We only got the odd or very urgent ones. 

 

I presume the reason for the over-provision of GPVs in 4mm is the same as that for large Pacifics, celebrity/designer paint schemes on modern stock, Warwells/Warflats and other esoteric rolling stock - they're sexy and they sell. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Wheatley

[Compound2632]

In 1912, around about the time all these Rapido mink-u-like gunpowder vans were being built, the Midland, by some considerable margin one of the two largest railway companies in the country, had just twenty gunpowder vans out of a total goods fleet of around 128,000 vehicles. At the end of that year it took over the LT&SR, thereby more than doubling its fleet of gunpowder vans, the Tilbury having had twenty-five out of a total goods stock of 1,947 vehicles.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

... gunpowder vans, the Tilbury having had twenty-five ...

Presumably there was some explosives traffic for the cement industry around Grays ......... maybe the rest of the vans were needed for ordnance to that great blank space on the map beyond Shoeburyness ??!?

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

 maybe the rest of the vans were needed for ordnance to that great blank space on the map beyond Shoeburyness ??!?

 

As discussed on the Rapido gunpowder van topic, most ordnance was safe for transport in ordinary wagons.

[duncan]

I think I read somewhere that the max permitted load of explosives was actually quite small, in peacetime, might have been on the old forum.  Can anyone confirm this ?

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, duncan said:

I think I read somewhere that the max permitted load of explosives was actually quite small, in peacetime, might have been on the old forum.  Can anyone confirm this ?

 

This was discussed in one of the recent RTR gunpowder wagon topics, so that'll be the place to look. (Not the recent Rapidio mink-u-like topic.)

Edited April 5, 2023 by Compound2632

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, duncan said:

I think I read somewhere that the max permitted load of explosives was actually quite small, in peacetime, might have been on the old forum.  Can anyone confirm this ?

 

Maximum of 5 wagons carrying explosives in a train during peacetime.

[eastglosmog]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As discussed on the Rapido gunpowder van topic, most ordnance was safe for transport in ordinary wagons.

Provided the wagon was properly cleaned and did not have residual sulphur etc to catch fire.

[hmrspaul]

6 hours ago, C126 said:

 

Sorry to be so dim-witted and drift this thread O.T., but I thought (purely from photos) that 'little brown job' vans out-numbered 3/5-plank opens considerably in the 1970's.  If I got the sums correct, the air-braked vans:opens for Speedlink was 1,400 (+550 VEAs):1,300.  If anyone could tell me what the prior proportion was for the last five years of 1970's wagon-load operation, I would be grateful.  Apologies again for asking tangential questions.

The accurate figures for March 77 are in BR Wagons. But roughly 10 - 11K opens vers 15 - 16K vans. And yes there were a lot more AB vans than opens until the OBA came along - with 800 added to the 100 OAA they did partially catch up with the vans. BUT don't overlook these figures are for revenue wagons, a lot of VB opens were in departmental use by the mid to late 1970s. 

 

Paul

[br2975]

9 hours ago, rovex said:

 

Well perhaps, but my point is the number of different models available would probably be sufficient to carry enough explosives to support a small war

.

Sorry, but your point is ?

.

There are far more models of 'Western' diesel hydraulics produced/available than the 74 built by BR.

.

There are far more models of 'Falcon' and 'Kestrel' than the solitary examples used on the network.

.

There are far more models of nuclear flask wagons about than ever ran on the network.

.

The real life traffic is irrelevant, it is what the model railway manufacturers think the market will support is what counts.

[rovex]

7 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

Sorry, but your point is ?

 

 

Really the point is that there are so many other interesting wagon types that either need an upgrade or have never been modelled rtr, why churn out even more gunpowder vans!

[Aire Head]

38 minutes ago, rovex said:

 

Really the point is that there are so many other interesting wagon types that either need an upgrade or have never been modelled rtr, why churn out even more gunpowder vans!

 

The answer is because they will sell better than the alternatives.

 

Unless they are GWR then rejoice because you really are spoilt at the moment!

[Wickham Green too]

... and once you've done the tooling you might as well splash on all the relevant liveries you can find ................... though making up 'new' liveries is more questionable.