Gunpowder?

[kevinlms]

41 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

The answer is because they will sell better than the alternatives.

 

Because modellers aren't interested in having models in proportion to the numbers actually built.

 

For example the LMS built 205,845 new wagons 1923-47.

Of these over 54,000 were built to the Diag. 1666 design, between 1923 - 27. So this is more than 25% of the total wagons built by the LMS. Other diagrams, only had minor differences.

 

Who wants to have their model wagon fleet looking identical - no one!

So modellers tend to go for a range of different types and often these are special vehicles, which were only built in limited numbers.

Their gunpowder wagons is a case in point, they only built 200, of which 60 were built post 1938.

So to get the balance right, if you have an LMS Gunpowder Van on your layout, you should have over 250 Diag. 1666 wagons!

Get buying/building!

[Wickham Green too]

I have to admit to having a disproportionate number of Dia.1666 to GPV - with two running, two kits in the stash and two more on order, I really ought to get hold of 2.2222% of a GPV to make up the balance !

[Compound2632]

Nothing wrong with special wagons so long as they are used sparingly and appropriately. If you are modelling a line that serves one or more quarries, a fortnightly gunpowder van would not be out of place, perhaps. 

[Dungrange]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

So to get the balance right, if you have an LMS Gunpowder Van on your layout, you should have over 250 Diag. 1666 wagons!

 

Of course there is a difference between owning and operating model wagons.  Not too many layouts are large enough to accommodate 250 wagons in the scenic area, so we need to trim that number down to what can appear on a layout at any one time.  Obviously we may be able to get by with just 25 Diagram 1666 wagons (one tenth of the prototype ratio), but with regards a gunpowder van, you can't have a tenth of a wagon, so we need to buy one.  Obviously in terms of the stock that we own, this is not in proportion, but that doesn't matter, as long as when we come to operate the layout each of our 25 Diagram 1666 wagons make 10 appearances in the scenic area before the Gunpowder van makes another appearance, and the same approach can be applied to any 'special' wagon.  'Special' wagons should only be used now and again to provide the ad-hoc variety observed in the prototype.

[hmrspaul]

5 hours ago, rovex said:

 

Really the point is that there are so many other interesting wagon types that either need an upgrade or have never been modelled rtr, why churn out even more gunpowder vans!

One accurater RTR model and some kits from Parkside (I'm assuming they did a 4mm one, certainly a nice 7mm one). Any others you have in mind are simply wrong ! (was there more than Hornby Dublo? I cannot think there were a lot of models just because Dapol now produce the same mistake)

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Maximum of 5 wagons carrying explosives in a train during peacetime.

Not exactly.  The maximum of 5 wagons carrying commercial explosives was ameded in 1941 to allow that number to be exceeded in trains carrying explosives to or on behalf any part of the armed forces.  However traffic from a commercial trader to am armed forces establishment was also permitted to exceed.   This relaxations continued after WWII so mention of 'peacetime' is not relevant..

 

During WWII no limit seems to have been set on the number of wagons carrying military explosives, or wagons carrying explosives destined for military establishments, which could be conveyed in any one train.  However in 1954 a limit was introduced on the number of wagons allowed on any one train when conveying military explosives.  The limits  varied according to the category of explosives   carried, for example one category ewwas not allowed to exceed 5 wagons, and another was limited to 30 wagons but for some categoriesa amaximum of 60 wagons containing mimilr tary explosives could be formed in one train. 

 

The ap mplic fucation of Rule 240 was not continued in the 1960 reissue of the General Appendix but was included in the WR Regional Appendix. (and presumably replicated ion soem way on other Regions? but was taken out of the WR RA in 1964.  rule 240 - in respect of conveyance of explosives, was tajen out of the Rule Book with the 1961 revision and the information was then transferred elsewhere - ultimately to the Pink Pages of the Working manual for Rail Staff (WMRS).

 

Leaping r forward tp 1986 the quantity of commercial explosive allowed on any one train was 36 tons.  The quantity of milirtary explosive permitted in any one trains had by then beem considerably reduced and it was permissible to mix ina train some types of commerical and military explosives..

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Nothing wrong with special wagons so long as they are used sparingly and appropriately. If you are modelling a line that serves one or more quarries, a fortnightly gunpowder van would not be out of place, perhaps. 

Here's fun example for you - in the n mod 1970s one of the freight yards on my patch handled only two types of traffic (not at the same time!).  Bitumen, in tank cars - which had to be heated to aid unloading - and commercial explosives in vans.

[rovex]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not exactly.  The maximum of 5 wagons carrying commercial explosives was ameded in 1941 to allow that number to be exceeded in trains carrying explosives to or on behalf any part of the armed forces.  However traffic from a commercial trader to am armed forces establishment was also permitted to exceed.   This relaxations continued after WWII so mention of 'peacetime' is not relevant..

 

During WWII no limit seems to have been set on the number of wagons carrying military explosives, or wagons carrying explosives destined for military establishments, which could be conveyed in any one train.  However in 1954 a limit was introduced on the number of wagons allowed on any one train when conveying military explosives.  The limits  varied according to the category of explosives   carried, for example one category ewwas not allowed to exceed 5 wagons, and another was limited to 30 wagons but for some categoriesa amaximum of 60 wagons containing mimilr tary explosives could be formed in one train. 

 

The ap mplic fucation of Rule 240 was not continued in the 1960 reissue of the General Appendix but was included in the WR Regional Appendix. (and presumably replicated ion soem way on other Regions? but was taken out of the WR RA in 1964.  rule 240 - in respect of conveyance of explosives, was tajen out of the Rule Book with the 1961 revision and the information was then transferred elsewhere - ultimately to the Pink Pages of the Working manual for Rail Staff (WMRS).

 

Leaping r forward tp 1986 the quantity of commercial explosive allowed on any one train was 36 tons.  The quantity of milirtary explosive permitted in any one trains had by then beem considerably reduced and it was permissible to mix ina train some types of commerical and military explosives..

 

Out of curiosity, were they limitations on the routes such traffic could use, I'm thinking you wouldn't really want to run an armaments train or five or more gunpowder carrying vans through the centre of a built up area like Birmingham?

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, rovex said:

Out of curiosity, were they limitations on the routes such traffic could use, I'm thinking you wouldn't really want to run an armaments train or five or more gunpowder carrying vans through the centre of a built up area like Birmingham?

 

I can't see that being the case. If the stuff is unsafe in the gunpowder van, then there's something wrong with the design.

 

They were locked; the Midland Railway Study Centre has a key:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 11595.]

[Nick Lawson]

On 05/04/2023 at 15:29, hmrspaul said:

Don't overlook that there are non military uses of explosives, such as quarrying, so these vans in small numbers could turn up all over the country. 

Agreed. My dad worked in civil engineering in the 50s & early 60s. In those days plant  wasn't as powerful as today. I have a distant memory of a Saturday morning site visit and standing well away  while  tree stumps were blown up. (Disappointing lack of big bang, flying earth etc.) Earlier he had been in open cast mining which is probably where this artefact originated. (Sorry picture refuses to sit upright) I love the provision of a comb-jointed painted wooden box for this material.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

On 05/04/2023 at 20:32, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably there was some explosives traffic for the cement industry around Grays ......... maybe the rest of the vans were needed for ordnance to that great blank space on the map beyond Shoeburyness ??!?

The LT&SR wagons were probably built for traffic from the Kynochs munitions factory near Shell Haven. 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, rovex said:

 

Out of curiosity, were they limitations on the routes such traffic could use, I'm thinking you wouldn't really want to run an armaments train or five or more gunpowder carrying vans through the centre of a built up area like Birmingham?

Hmm,  i can perhaps understand there'd be no restriction at Slough (where the assumption could be that any bombs passing through might be 'friendly' - with apologies to John Betjeman).  But iverall I'm not aware of any restrictions with the posssible exception of the Severn Tunnel (I'll check the Tunnel Instructions when I get a chance) and i know for a fact that trains conveying considerable quantities of bombs - probably up to the permitted maximum or only restricted by loco load ability) were passing through London on a regular basis in the late 1960s andI also know that they passed through York (no doubt via the Goods Lines?) in the 1950s.

 

Don't forget that most of the milirtary stuff was either inert or would produce much if a bang in the case of the less inert stuff.  And detonators were normally loaded in a separate wagon from bombs and artillery shells and in small quantities.

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, Nick Lawson said:

Agreed. My dad worked in civil engineering in the 50s & early 60s. In those days plant  wasn't as powerful as today. I have a distant memory of a Saturday morning site visit and standing well away  while  tree stumps were blown up. (Disappointing lack of big bang, flying earth etc.) Earlier he had been in open cast mining which is probably where this artefact originated. (Sorry picture refuses to sit upright) I love the provision of a comb-jointed painted wooden box for this material.

From the late 1940s until the end of the 1960s, my father managed a building and civil engineering firm. One of his clients had worries about their main sewer backing up and aske dad if he could come up with a way of clearing the blockage without any disruption. One of the 'boys' suggested pushing a stick of Gelignite, and associated fuse, as far as it would go into the drain. The charge was lashed to the end of a piece of pipe, and inserted. Dad sent someone to the river end of the outfall, with instructions to keep out of the way, but to shout once there was some movement visible.. Regrettably, the person stood just in front; it took a lot of scrubbing to get the muck off him... 

 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

The LT&SR wagons were probably built for traffic from the Kynochs munitions factory near Shell Haven. 

 

That fits; that works was opened in 1897. There was an estate for employees built, called Kynochtown. Between January 1915 and January 1916 the Midland sold Kynochs seven old carriages for use on their private lines at Kynochtown - presumably used to provide a shuttle service between the estate and the works. 

[D9020 Nimbus]

But there was a serious incident at Soham in WW2 causing two fatalities and substantial damage to the town — from just one wagon exploding. Had it not been for the bravery of the crew, the entire train might have exploded. The driver (Benjamin Gilbert) who survived, and the fireman (James Nightall) who was killed, were both awarded the George Cross. The other fatality  was the signalman.

 

Two class 47 locomotives were named after them — at one time they were used on Royal Train duty.

 

So yes, trains of explosives can be dangerous.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That fits; that works was opened in 1897. There was an estate for employees built, called Kynochtown. Between January 1915 and January 1916 the Midland sold Kynochs seven old carriages for use on their private lines at Kynochtown - presumably used to provide a shuttle service between the estate and the works. 

Kynochtown was walking distance from the works. The carriages were bought for the Corringham Light Railway service between Kynochtown and Corringham (where I grew up). The terraces nearest to Corringham station were built by Kynochs though. 
 

Kynochtown was eventually demolished (by then renamed Coryton) to make way for expansion of the Mobil refinery, which was built adjacent to the site of the Kynochs works. Apparently the Kynochtown / Coryton platform still exists but is not accessible to the public. 

[phil_sutters]

8 hours ago, Nick Lawson said:

 I love the provision of a comb-jointed painted wooden box for this material.

 

Would the comb joints be a better option than nailed joints, in the avoidance of sparks and the resulting risk of explosion?

 

[pH]

A bit OT, but still involving explosives and railways …

 

The Kettle Valley Railway was built across southern BC between 1910 and 1916. Dynamite was just coming into use at that time - before then, black powder had been the explosive used in railway construction. With temperatures in winter getting well down into the minus Centigrades, the nitroglycerine in the dynamite would freeze. Construction workers would sometimes sit dynamite close to open fires to thaw it before use or even heat sticks in frying pans! The author of the book in which I read this continues “Numerous fatalities resulted. (NSS!!) Such actions by the workers would seem unbelievable were the deaths not so well documented.”

[Oldddudders]

7 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

From the late 1940s until the end of the 1960s, my father managed a building and civil engineering firm. One of his clients had worries about their main sewer backing up and aske dad if he could come up with a way of clearing the blockage without any disruption. One of the 'boys' suggested pushing a stick of Gelignite, and associated fuse, as far as it would go into the drain. The charge was lashed to the end of a piece of pipe, and inserted. Dad sent someone to the river end of the outfall, with instructions to keep out of the way, but to shout once there was some movement visible.. Regrettably, the person stood just in front; it took a lot of scrubbing to get the muck off him... 

 

ISTR Blaster Bates has a comparable story. He had gone to free-up a chap's soakaway which had become moribund. A couple of sticks of explosive and, after much gurgling, up it went. And then the wind took it. A chap minding his own business in an adjacent field developed gossamer wings, while a pub a couple of miles down the road changed colour - and the patrons thought it was a total eclipse! 

[figworthy]

24 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

ISTR Blaster Bates has a comparable story. He had gone to free-up a chap's soakaway which had become moribund. A couple of sticks of explosive and, after much gurgling, up it went. And then the wind took it. A chap minding his own business in an adjacent field developed gossamer wings, while a pub a couple of miles down the road changed colour - and the patrons thought it was a total eclipse! 

 

The shower of s..t over Cheshire.  Available on a video sharing site near you.  May offend.

 

Adrian

[kevinlms]

9 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

ISTR Blaster Bates has a comparable story. He had gone to free-up a chap's soakaway which had become moribund. A couple of sticks of explosive and, after much gurgling, up it went. And then the wind took it. A chap minding his own business in an adjacent field developed gossamer wings, while a pub a couple of miles down the road changed colour - and the patrons thought it was a total eclipse! 

Then there is the story of Gelignite Jack - nothing was ever proved or admitted!

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-19/gelignite-jack-murray-exploits-remembered-in-new-book/8723322

[Rivercider]

On 05/04/2023 at 14:40, rovex said:

 

Well perhaps, but my point is the number of different models available would probably be sufficient to carry enough explosives to support a small war

I believe a lot of the consignments were quite small, on occasions perhaps just a crate or two of small arms ammunition for a local training exercise, picked up and taken away in a land rover.

 

I started in the Bristol Area Freight Centre in 1978 as the traditional vacuum braked wagon load freight network

was being run down. There was regular traffic in gunpowder vans going down to Truro (for quarrying I assume?).

The empty vans usually came back up on an Exeter to Warrington service, sometimes marshalled next to a nuclear flask, which caused some comment.

The Royal Ordnance Factory at Puriton regularly loaded out consignments of explosives and propellants, though they loaded out in vanwides fitted with roller bearings and not gunpowder vans. Each consignment was generally not more than a few tonnes.

As I recall each consignment of explosives was 'wired' out to yards and terminals on a need to know basis, each consignment being identified by a four digit number  CSxxxx. Generally loadings were higher at the start of the week, particularly Mondays. Explosives would not be left unattended at unmanned locations so traffic would not normally be dispatched on a Friday as it would need to be at the destination location before the weekend,

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

On 06/04/2023 at 17:14, rovex said:

 

Out of curiosity, were they limitations on the routes such traffic could use, I'm thinking you wouldn't really want to run an armaments train or five or more gunpowder carrying vans through the centre of a built up area like Birmingham?

There is usually no alternative route for dangerous goods traffic, so it has to pass through city centres.

More restrictive was what could, or could not, be conveyed on the same train, and whether some traffic had to be separated by a certain distance. The Pink Pages of the Working Manual previously referred to by Mike covered these requirements.

Bridgwater Yard when I knew it in the 1970s 1980s and 1990s handled an interesting mix of traffic. As well as the nuclear flask crane compound in the yard the local freight trip loco would visit the Royal Ordnance Factory (ROF) exchange sidings at Puriton. The ROF received and dispatched explosives and propellants, but also regularly received a tank of sulphuric acid from ISC chemicals at Hallen Marsh. The British Cellophane factory just up the line in Bridgwater regularly received tanks of caustic soda, and about one a month a tank of something particularly nasty from Terneutzen in Holland. Add to that the UKF/Shellstar siding at Bridgwater which received trains loads, and wagon loads of fertiliser (some of it with a UN hazard code). Back then I had a reasonable knowledge of what traffic could, or could not, travel together - but the TOPS system would only issue a valid train list if the requirements had been met. I do remember the discharged tank for Terneutzen generally had to be sent away on a Friday (when no explosives were ever dispatched) as it was incompatible with Dangerous Goods class 1,

 

cheers   

[hmrspaul]

22 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I believe a lot of the consignments were quite small, on occasions perhaps just a crate or two of small arms ammunition for a local training exercise, picked up and taken away in a land rover.

 

I started in the Bristol Area Freight Centre in 1978 as the traditional vacuum braked wagon load freight network

was being run down. There was regular traffic in gunpowder vans going down to Truro (for quarrying I assume?).

The empty vans usually came back up on an Exeter to Warrington service, sometimes marshalled next to a nuclear flask, which caused some comment.

The Royal Ordnance Factory at Puriton regularly loaded out consignments of explosives and propellants, though they loaded out in vanwides fitted with roller bearings and not gunpowder vans. Each consignment was generally not more than a few tonnes.

As I recall each consignment of explosives was 'wired' out to yards and terminals on a need to know basis, each consignment being identified by a four digit number  CSxxxx. Generally loadings were higher at the start of the week, particularly Mondays. Explosives would not be left unattended at unmanned locations so traffic would not normally be dispatched on a Friday as it would need to be at the destination location before the weekend,

 

cheers

Truro Gunpowder https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brgunpowder/e2a1ee739   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsgunpowdercxv/e3aa752a5

 

Warrington  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brgunpowder/e2fd95082    https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brgunpowder/e2a38b480   

 

One of the Vanwides at Bridgwater https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanwide/e1a72a26b although by that time most were VEA and I have plenty of photos of those. 

 

And this may be one of the unpleasant ferry tank loads at Bridgwater https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/ferryvtgtank/eaa94abch   ttps://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/britaingeneralrail/e5ba97fa0

 

Bridgwater also unloaded nuclear flasks in someones front garden. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brnuclearflask/e289c0cf2  This has influenced several models. 

 

Paul

 

[Rivercider]

38 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Truro Gunpowder https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brgunpowder/e2a1ee739   https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsgunpowdercxv/e3aa752a5

 

Warrington  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brgunpowder/e2fd95082    https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brgunpowder/e2a38b480   

 

One of the Vanwides at Bridgwater https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brvanwide/e1a72a26b although by that time most were VEA and I have plenty of photos of those. 

 

And this may be one of the unpleasant ferry tank loads at Bridgwater https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/ferryvtgtank/eaa94abch   ttps://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/britaingeneralrail/e5ba97fa0

 

Bridgwater also unloaded nuclear flasks in someones front garden. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brnuclearflask/e289c0cf2  This has influenced several models. 

 

Paul

 

Thanks Paul, that VTG tank car looks right, vinylidene chloride used in the production of packaging products is UN code 1303 and dangerous goods code 3(A) highly flammable liquid, so not permitted on a train with explosives or a loaded nuclear flask.

 

Here is 7M22 the 09.05 Exeter Riverside to Bescot (as it had become by then), shown calling at Bridgwater to attach a loaded flask for Sellafield.

 

47335 restarts 7M22 away from Bridgwater. Behind the loco are two empty gunpowder vans, probably returning from Truro. Behind them the three loaded clayfits are probably conveying ball clay from North Devon to Molar Products at Wrexham for the manufacture of dentures. The loaded nuclear flask is seen further back behind the next block of vanfits, 12/9/80

 

cheers 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Rivercider
added date to photo.