Great War-era WD/ROD wagons from Rapido

[RapidoCorbs]

WD / ROD V17 and O11 Wagons

 

 

A suitable accompaniment to any ROD-liveried loco or even a rail-mounted artillery piece, the two new additions to the Rapido Trains UK stable hark back to the railways of the Great War.

 

The Diagram V17s were GWR ‘Mink As’ that were sent to France during the First World War, at which point they received screw couplings and a whole new diagram number.

 

944028: Diagram V17 No. 35601, WD grey

 

To complement the new WD Diagram V17, an additional Diagram O11 five-plank open has been added to the Rapido range. This depicts ‘O11’ No. 21110 in WD livery.

A photograph exists showing this exact wagon in use delivering sand for sandbags.

 

943026: Diagram O11 No. 21110, WD grey

 

Thanks must go to Nick Richardson for his help with the research on this project.

[NHY 581]

Yay ! 

[JSpencer]

So would they have run in the UK in WD colours (apart from when leaving and returning) or were they only used on the continent?

[GreenGiraffe22]

Ah, that answers my "are they WWI or WWII WD?" question 

[RapidoCorbs]

On 14/04/2023 at 21:45, JSpencer said:

So would they have run in the UK in WD colours (apart from when leaving and returning) or were they only used on the continent?

Possibly around Richborough in conjunction with IW&D operations, the train ferry etc.

 

Mostly they would have worked within France and Belgium. Apparently the GWR wagons were thought of very highly by the French and the British armies as the oil axleboxes and quality of build were good.

A transhipment depot with the WD narrow gauge stuff would be a good layout.

[NHY 581]

I have just the thing(s).....

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

On 16/04/2023 at 14:54, RapidoCorbs said:

Mostly they would have worked within France and Belgium. Apparently the GWR wagons were thought of very highly by the French and the British armies as the oil axleboxes and quality of build were good.

 

The Chemins de fer du Nord, which of course saw the brunt of military traffic, would not accept wagons with grease axleboxes on its main lines, so, in France, British stock with grease axleboxes was largely confined to internal use in the large British Army yards, according to a Railway Magazine article written not long after the war, that I had from @Northroader.

 

According to the same source, Great Western stock that went to France was, by WD numbers:

• 5301 - 5350 30 ton bogie Macaws (to France 1916-17)
• 19001 - 22350 10 ton opens (ditto) - per Rapido
• 22721 - 22820 10 ton covered (ditto)
• 35690 - 35900 10 ton covered (1917) - per Rapido
• 35901 - 36300 10 ton pill box (1917)
• 96001 - 98500 10 ton open (late 1918)

According to that article, pill box wagons were open wagons adapted for carrying pre-cast concrete sections for the construction of pill boxes. They were given sloping roofs, like salt wagons only not so steep. I know of photos of LNWR and Midland examples, but not GWR. (But see @RapidoCorbs reply below.)

 

I make that a total of 6,610 wagons. The Midland loaned 6,128 wagons, of which 5,974 had been returned and 5,901 repaired and put back into traffic by December 1920, at an average cost of £9 per wagon. The Midland had fewer wagons with oil axleboxes which would account for the Great Western having loaned more from its smaller quantity of stock. I suppose that there would have been a similar return rate for Great Western wagons.

 

There had for many years prior to the Great War been a scheme for voluntary registration of horses, to be available in the event of mobilisation, to which the Midland along with other companies subscribed. A similar scheme for railway wagons was established in 1905. MR Traffic Committee minute 33924 of 15 June 1905 reads:

 

Voluntary registration of rolling stock.

                              The General Manager submitted a communication, dated 2nd May, 1905, from the War Office enquiring whether the Midland Company will agree to the voluntary registration of certain rolling stock for warlike purposes in the event of it being required in connection with operations of the Army outside the United Kingdom, and, if so, on what terms. Submitted, also, minutes of a meeting of Officers of the principal Railway Companies held at Euston on 30th May to consider what course should be adopted.

                              Resolved that the Board be recommended to approve the principle and allow a small proportion of their stock to be registered on terms to be settled in conjunction with the other Railway Companies concerned.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Compound2632
Clarification of sorts re. pill box wagons.

[RapidoCorbs]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Pill box wagons were open wagons adapted for carrying pre-cast concrete sections for the construction of pill boxes. They were given sloping roofs, like salt wagons only not so steep. i know of photos of LNWR and Midland examples, but not GWR.

 

 

Sorry to leap on this point, I think this is actually a mistake in the article (which we used as a primary source in our research for these). 'Pill box' wagons had the metal lids added and were converted to lockers.

Using 'pill box' to describe a concrete emplacement was, I believe, a post-war trend and the article was written in 1933. Before this, it seems that it was more common to use 'pill box' to describe something that had multiple compartments, like a box of pills, which the converted locker wagons resembled.

The author has made an understandable mistake by using the contemporary description of pill box (at the time of writing) and applying it to the wagon list.

 

The GWR O11 opens that were converted to locker wagons and had screw couplings fitted were designated O17. There is a photo of a converted O17 No.35902 (GWR number 86551) in the GWR wagon bible on page 306.

 

I believe the Railway Gazette special published immediately after the war defines them as hinged lockers/pill boxes, and this was in The Engineer, Dec 12, 1919, pages 581 and 590 regarding the work of the Gorton and Dunkinfield Workshops of the Great Central Railway where 3267 10 ton wagons were converted for use overseas:
The company adapted, by affixing screw couplings and other fittings suitable for continental use, 2767 10-ton wagons, and a further 500 wagons, similarly adapted, were fitted with hinge tops-as shown in figure 88, page 590. These wagons were used overseas for conveying ammunition. Thirty-five goods brakes with a tare of 11 tons 11 cwt., were built for use in Egypt.

 

(from: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/119267-ww1-re-rod-rolling-stock-not-taken-from-uk-railways/page/2/ )

 

 

This caused A LOT of head scratching!

Similarly confusing; the WD's definition of what we would call 'van' changes at some point in 1917, up to then 'vans' were referred to as 'covered' and then become known as 'box'.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by RapidoCorbs

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

Sorry to leap on this point, I think this is actually a mistake in the article (which we used as a primary source in our research for these). 'Pill box' wagons had the metal lids added and were converted to lockers.

 

Thanks - no apology necessary, all improvement in my knowledge is very welcome! I have to say I have been thoroughly confused by this point. Until I saw this article, and for some time knowing only the Midland converted open from the photo in Midland Wagons, I had supposed they must have been for ammunition, until I got LNWR Wagons, which says they were for grain! (I have no information as to what evidence there was for that statement but could ask Mike Williams.) Post edited; see also PM.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Compound2632

[Fat Controller]

The 'Locker Wagon' seems very similar in concept to the 'Shellcase' wagons, converted in the 1950s/60s from redundant 'Pa;brick' wagons. The main difference seems to be that the later wagons did not seem to have lids.

 

[NHY 581]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

According to the same source, Great Western stock that went to France was, by WD numbers:

• 5301 - 5350 30 ton bogie Macaws (to France 1916-17)
• 19001 - 22350 10 ton opens (ditto) - per Rapido
• 22721 - 22820 10 ton covered (ditto)
• 35690 - 35900 10 ton covered (1917) - per Rapido
• 35901 - 36300 10 ton pill box (1917)
• 96001 - 98500 10 ton open (late 1918)

 

I think there might have to be a degree of "Rule 1" applied as the P class locos in my last post were repatriated at the end of October 1916......

 

Rob

[Ian Hargrave]

On 16/04/2023 at 15:51, NHY 581 said:

I have just the thing(s).....

 

 

 

 

And nothing runs better on a layout then one of these. They look good and their performance is phenomenal right down to the lowest mark on your controller and the doziest of frogs.At this price ? Buy,buy,buy….

[Chen Melling]

On 18/04/2023 at 13:58, RapidoCorbs said:

The company adapted, by affixing screw couplings and other fittings suitable for continental use, 2767 10-ton wagons, and a further 500 wagons, similarly adapted, were fitted with hinge tops-as shown in figure 88, page 590. These wagons were used overseas for conveying ammunition. Thirty-five goods brakes with a tare of 11 tons 11 cwt., were built for use in Egypt.

A bit off-topic but this quote is a bit puzzling to me, as Palestine Railways inherited 45 of these GCR-type brake vans, not 35. I wonder whether this is a mistake or perhaps 10 were not built new but rather taken from GCR's stock.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Chen Melling

[RapidoCorbs]

As an addition to this Great War-era WD wagon duo, the upcoming 7-plank PO wagon range also features a WD wagon.

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/wd-no-81797/

 

This is 81797, one of a huge number of wagons produced for the war effort.

 

This wagon was featured in a photo of railway guns being shipped across the channel so may be a good accompaniment to anyone who has the appropriate artillery...

 

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

This is 81797, one of a huge number of wagons produced for the war effort.

 

Note the oil axleboxes, still something of a rarity on PO wagons at the time, but a requirement for acceptance by the C.F. du Nord.

 

Is it known which builders were contracted for these?

Edited May 14 by Compound2632

[Chen Melling]

On 14/05/2024 at 18:34, Compound2632 said:

 

Note the oil axleboxes, still something of a rarity on PO wagons at the time, but a requirement for acceptance by the C.F. du Nord.

 

Is it known which builders were contracted for these?

 

My late friend Ray Ellis collated information about rolling stock purchased by the WD in WW1 from the C.E.R. Sherrington article in The Railway Magazine as well as other records and drawings, and below is the list of 12t open wagon noted:

 

However, note that this list is not complete, as Ray's sources did not include any of the rolling stock supplied directly to the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. This stock (mostly later passing to the Palestine Railways) also included c. 1000 WD 12t opens, from most of the same wagon works mentioned above with the WD prefix.

 

Edit: somehow the line relating to Rapido's choice got left out:

 

Edited May 15 by Chen Melling

[RapidoCorbs]

2 hours ago, Chen Melling said:

 

 

 

Edit: somehow the line relating to Accurascale's choice got left out:

 

 

Whose choice? 🙃

Edited May 14 by RapidoCorbs

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

Whose choice? 🙃

 

Rapurascale. Or is it Accrido? Not always easy to distinguish, the stuff's so good from both.

[Chen Melling]

22 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

 

Whose choice? 🙃

Too many threads, too few sleeping hours...

 

Corrected my comment.

[Edwardian]

So prodigous has been Rapido's output of late that I had missed these until now.

 

They seem a good choice in that they can be both shunted around Richborough by a suitably dour P Class, but can also be chuffered around a port like Calais by one of the Kerr Stuart Victory Class. They also complement the Bachmann parrots.

 

I should finish my little micro layout of such a subject... 

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

On 14/05/2024 at 20:23, Chen Melling said:

However, note that this list is not complete, as Ray's sources did not include any of the rolling stock supplied directly to the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. This stock (mostly later passing to the Palestine Railways) also included c. 1000 WD 12t opens, from most of the same wagon works mentioned above with the WD prefix.

 

There is a list of freight stock on the Palestine Railway in 1925 on p356 of 'British Military Railways Overseas in the Great War'.

The list includes over 1000 10-ton opens.

Hurst Nelson built some of these for Palestine and there's a works photo of WD E.701 on the same page of the same book.

It's in a 'photographic' livery which may not be entirely representative of the way they were turned out, but may be accurate for lettering styles. The contract number P.M/W/1585 is painted on the side of the wagon.

 

This drawing on Flickr suggests that Chas Roberts built them for Palestine too, and the contract number is given on the drawing;

 

'Historical Railway Images' on Flickr has some other interesting photos, perhaps less relevant to this thread but inspiration for future ones?

 

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Hurst Nelson built some of these for Palestine and there's a works photo of WD E.701 on the same page of the same book.

 

I will bow to @Chen Melling but my understanding is that wagons with an E prefix were those that went to Egypt (logically enough), hence including that LNWR D88 clone - these photos have I think done the rounds on the Rapido D88 topic as well as, I think, upthread here, but no harm in seeing them again!

Edited May 16 by Compound2632