SR running & timetabling post-grouping

[Olive_Green1923]

I’m interested in establishing how the SR operated in comparison to its constituent companies pre-1923.

 

Pre-grouping, the LSWR, LBSCR & SECR will have course 99% of the time operated in their respective patches.

 

But post-1923, to what degree was the timetabling shaken up so that trains started in one of the old patches and ran through to another? i.e. hypothetically, an ex-LSWR set could have been timetabled to start from Petersfield (ex-LSWR) and terminate in Crawley (ex-LBSCR)? If this did happen, were there also any services post-1923 which spanned across all three constituent patches? i.e. started at an ex-LSWR station, ran through LBSCR territory and terminated at a ex-SECR station?

 

Similarly, to what degree were locos and stock moved around post-1923? Did they nearly always stay in their home territories and run services similar to pre-1923, or were they readily mixed up? i.e. were any LSWR locos shedded in LBSCR territory? Or indeed at Ashford, and then routinely headed up local coach sets? Another example could be LBSCR locos shedded in LSWR or SECR territory and then heading coach sets from those respective companies?

 

Thanks in advance for any insight! 

[Tom Burnham]

I'm mainly familiar with ex-SECR lines, but others will no doubt contribute in relation to other areas.  Interchange of both locos and carriages was restricted to some extent by differences in loading gauge.  Even SR built carriages came in three different widths: Restriction 0 (Tonbridge Hastings line), Restriction 1 (other parts of the Eastern section) and Restriction 4 (other lines) . There was  gradual work to adjust clearances, although it was not until the 1980s that the Hastings Direct could take standard stock. Ex  Brighton and SW Locos gradually had modified cabs and boiler mountings to give them greater route availability.  So T9 440s were used on the Chatham routes in limited numbers in the 1930s. Also many Southern locos were based on pre-Grouping designs and were used over the whole system, like the Maunsell 260s and the King Arthur and S15 460s.  The Southern continued its constituents' practice of keeping carriages in fixed sets (mostly) so carriages of different pre-Grouping companies weren't often mixed up.  As the Southern 's main lines radiated from the London termini,  that reduced the scope for inter-running, but there was for example a through train between Brighton and Gillingham (Kent) via Tonbridge (reverse ) and Strood (reverse).

[bécasse]

Virtually nothing changed, there had been inter-Company train services before the grouping and these continued post-1923 changing a little over time in response to changes in the market. The Southern Railway and, indeed, the Southern Region continued to largely be managed, especially operationally, using a divisional structure which reflected the original pre-grouping companies, even though the public "face" of the railway was very much (and deliberately so) a unified one. There was, over time, some rationalisation of facilities but, ironically, the biggest SR rationalisation scheme in Thanet was in fact initiated by the SE and LC&D Railways' Joint Management Committee but whose implementation had been delayed by the Great War. 

 

There were limited movements of locomotives in strategic response to traffic requirements, a number of ex-LSWR T9 class 4-4-0 locos spent some years working express trains in Kent for example, while locomotives (and indeed carriages) allocated to pull and push "motor" trains had often crossed the old company boundaries. Locomtives displaced by the 1930s main line electrification schemes also sometimes found themselves in "foreign' parts.

[Tom Burnham]

It's interesting that the privatised franchises in Southern England still largely reflect the operating areas of companies which ceased to exist 100 years ago...

[Nearholmer]

The Tonbridge to Redhill line always had crossed all three areas, of course.

 

One group of locos that quickly got squeezed from all directions were the Brighton 4-4-0 tender engines, which were varied from fairly decent to not much to write home about, and were small classes. T9 from the LSWR on the Portsmouth services from Victoria, and I think E and D classes from the SECR coming onto the East Sussex side took up their work. A bit later the D3 0-4-4 tanks got squeezed out by M7 and H in a similar way.

 

But, the big story of the SR, right from the start, was electrification. If you look at the impact of the suburban electrifications of the 1920s on LBSCR and SECR tank locos and coaches, that far overshadowed anything else, and the same followed with the 1930s schemes. The SR rationalised by electrifying, and by building new steam locos and coaches, much more than by moving existing pieces round the chessboard.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Nearholmer

[keefer]

Even BR's Southern Region was made up of South Eastern, Central and South Western divisions.

While there was probably more inter-division working, each division still had its own particular/special stock & workings. e.g. CEP/BEP/MLV boat-trains on the SED, REP/TC expresses to Bournemouth/Weymouth on the SWD etc.

[Nearholmer]

The long stand outs were the Tonbrige to Reading route and the Caterham and Tottenham Corner branches, which both remained firmly SECR until about 1990!

[Rivercider]

The ten members of the E1/R class 0-6-2T were conversions of LB&SCR E1 class 0-6-0T.

They were rebuilt and enlarged in 1927/28 for use on the former LSWR working in Exeter and North Devon and North Cornwall,

 

cheers

[keefer]

Even into the BR era Reading-Tonbridge seemed to be under threat of closure. The SR couldn't/wouldn't spend any money on it hence the cobbled-together 'Tadpole' units in the '70s before it finally went over to WR DMUs - even then, BR had to promote it as a Gatwick Airport rail link.

[The Stationmaster]

Train timing and resource diagramming on the Southern remained very firmly on the Pre-Group areas (witha few minor changes) well into BR days and in soem respects beyond that.  Even when they were brought together under two-tier management with the three former Divisions abolished teh work was still organised in teh same way in the new centralised offices and that only changed gradually

 

Even when I took over freight planning on the former Southern Region in 1992 there was still a limited amount of denarcation although by then freight train timing was largely in the hands of one person - and it was definitely in teh hnads of one person from 1993 when I took it in-house instead of paying another organisation to do it for me.  When I moved full time to former Southern territory in 1994 all of my train planning team were initially ex SR and spoke of each other as Western Section or Central Section people - 70 years after the grouping!

 

But in some respects the Southern was no different from some other regions where a lot of train planning work remained at Divisional Office level until the two-tier organisation came in during the mid 1980s.

[Wickham Green too]

Ex L.S.W.R. coaching stock largely remained in its home area - though sets of 'Ironclads' were built for use on the 'Brighton' lines. 'Brighton' coaching stock was weeded-out relatively early - even though some was built in 'Southern' days - so cross country services in the Central and Eastern Sections shared a pool of 'Rover' sets of largely Wainwright origin. Once the 'Brighton' and Pompey main lines were electrified the remaining main line stock was polarised between Eastern and Western sections with little or no interchange.

 

[The Lurker]

15 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

I'm mainly familiar with ex-SECR lines, but others will no doubt contribute in relation to other areas.  Interchange of both locos and carriages was restricted to some extent by differences in loading gauge.  Even SR built carriages came in three different widths: Restriction 0 (Tonbridge Hastings line), Restriction 1 (other parts of the Eastern section) and Restriction 4 (other lines) . There was  gradual work to adjust clearances, although it was not until the 1980s that the Hastings Direct could take standard stock. Ex  Brighton and SW Locos gradually had modified cabs and boiler mountings to give them greater route availability.  So T9 440s were used on the Chatham routes in limited numbers in the 1930s. Also many Southern locos were based on pre-Grouping designs and were used over the whole system, like the Maunsell 260s and the King Arthur and S15 460s.  The Southern continued its constituents' practice of keeping carriages in fixed sets (mostly) so carriages of different pre-Grouping companies weren't often mixed up.  As the Southern 's main lines radiated from the London termini,  that reduced the scope for inter-running, but there was for example a through train between Brighton and Gillingham (Kent) via Tonbridge (reverse ) and Strood (reverse).

At one stage that train ran as far as Sheerness - there’s a copy of the timetable showing it in one of the Middleton books - Strood to Paddock Wood.

 

some of smaller and older Drummond 4-4-0’s were allocated to Gillingham in the 20’s but proved unpopular and some of the Brighton tanks were found in places like the Hawkhurst branch - the D3’s and E4’s for sure and possibly the D1. 
 

Some of the pull push sets were formed of carriages from different pre-grouping companies too.

[Tom Burnham]

Quite a lot of middle aged suburban carriages (both bogie and 4 wheeled) from the Brighton, South Western and South Eastern (but not Chatham) were rebuilt into suburban 3 car electric sets and trailer sets, so as such did work off their original lines. Most of the small quantity of Chatham bogie carriages went to the Isle of Wight as did some 6 wheelers - converted to 4 wheelers - and other Chatham 6 wheelers were formed into 14 coach excursion sets of the less posh sort.

[Tom Burnham]

On 21/04/2023 at 21:53, Rivercider said:

The ten members of the E1/R class 0-6-2T were conversions of LB&SCR E1 class 0-6-0T.

They were rebuilt and enlarged in 1927/28 for use on the former LSWR working in Exeter and North Devon and North Cornwall,

 

cheers

Allegedly because local management liked the Hawthorn Leslie 062T pair that Colonel Stephens had bought for the Callington branch and wanted more of them, but Waterloo wouldn't spend money when there were spare E1s and some pony trucks among the oddments left over from Woolwich Arsenal's attempt to build N class moguls.  Don't know if that's true but it sounds very SR.

[keefer]

Sounds very SR, even BR(SR)! - why make/buy something new when you can convert/re-purpose stuff you already have (especially if there's a lack of funds) - EPBs built on the underframes of 2-NOLs, 'Tadpole' DEMUs using 'Hastings' power/trailer cars with 2EPB driving cars right through to re-using the traction motors and control gear from REPs for the 'Wessex' units!

[Rivercider]

8 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Allegedly because local management liked the Hawthorn Leslie 062T pair that Colonel Stephens had bought for the Callington branch and wanted more of them, but Waterloo wouldn't spend money when there were spare E1s and some pony trucks among the oddments left over from Woolwich Arsenal's attempt to build N class moguls.  Don't know if that's true but it sounds very SR.

Yes, that was my understanding about the surplus E1s, and the N pony trucks. 

I think the requirement was to provide motive power for the new Torrington - Halwill route, as well as the North Cornwall line. However the  E1/Rs were found to be unsteady at speed on the North Cornwall line. Thereafter several of the class found useful employment on banking and local trip work in Exeter, so not really using the extra coal and water capacity that was provided by the rebuild,

 

cheers

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Rivercider said:

... speed ... North Cornwall line. ...

Mutually exclusive, surely !!?! 😮

[Rivercider]

10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Mutually exclusive, surely !!?! 😮

Even more so on the North Devon and Cornwall Junction Light Railway,

 

cheers