Goods Platforms in Main Stations

[HereticUK]

Hello everyone!

I have a question regarding stations with train sheds/large canopies. I noticed that in Thomas the Tank Engine (Series 1 and 2 specifically) in Knapford station there seems to be a marshaling point for goods trains under the station canopy next to platform 4, as can be seen in this picture to the left side:

It also seems to be some kind of platform for goods traffic.

I was wondering if there were ever any situations where there was a goods shed or platform in one of these mainline stations or termini in the real world?

[Wickham Green too]

The vents on the end of that van suggest it's a Southern 'Covcar' - so it's probably a parcels platform ..... of which there were plenty.

[HereticUK]

Thank you for your reply!

 

Would these platforms have been used for anything else? Dry goods, for example?

[The Johnster]

A parcels platform was often used for passenger traffic at peak times, or was a passenger platform used for parcels work at night, which is when most parcels trains ran.   This would be irregardless (tx, Donald) of the presence of an overall canopy.  
 

General merchandise goods is handled at a separate goods depot away from the passenger platforms for several reasons, including security, handling facilities that are dangerous in publicly accessible areas, higher platforms with less clearance to ease loading and unloading, and space on the roadway side of the platforms.  In larger towns and cities they will tend to be located outside the central commercial district where the passenger station is situated because nobody wants the road traffic, vans and lorries, associated with them clogging up the centre of town.  Not an unbreakable rule, one can find exceptions; Bristol Temple Meads had a big adjacent goods depot, but this station is a distance away from the city centre proper.  Paddington Goods was pretty close to the passenger station as well. 

[dave75]

If you look at pictures of Darlington station , its very like Knapford, it has a siding like your picture shows, as well as a turntable. 

 

In some of the old black and white photographs it looks like Gordon, Spencer and Daisy are at Darlington, but I've never seen Thomas!

[Paul H Vigor]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A parcels platform was often used for passenger traffic at peak times, or was a passenger platform used for parcels work at night, which is when most parcels trains ran.   This would be irregardless (tx, Donald) of the presence of an overall canopy.  
 

General merchandise goods is handled at a separate goods depot away from the passenger platforms for several reasons, including security, handling facilities that are dangerous in publicly accessible areas, higher platforms with less clearance to ease loading and unloading, and space on the roadway side of the platforms.  In larger towns and cities they will tend to be located outside the central commercial district where the passenger station is situated because nobody wants the road traffic, vans and lorries, associated with them clogging up the centre of town.  Not an unbreakable rule, one can find exceptions; Bristol Temple Meads had a big adjacent goods depot, but this station is a distance away from the city centre proper.  Paddington Goods was pretty close to the passenger station as well. 

I believe the western end of Platform 1 at Paddington was used for parcels traffic? I recall standing on that very platform in the 1980s, photographing arriving and departing Class 50s. Happy days!

[Jim Martin]

This accident report from 1911 describes a collision at Liverpool  Central involving a special fruit train which was working into the station.

 

Jim

[keefer]

IIRC one or more of the east-facing bay platforms at Edinburgh Waverley were used for parcels.

There may have been a rail-connected depot to the south of the station, not sure if it was parcels or a Mail sorting-office.

Edited April 29, 2023 by keefer

[melmoth]

I think the town end of the up platform at Coventry was for parcels only at one time.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

I believe the western end of Platform 1 at Paddington was used for parcels traffic? I recall standing on that very platform in the 1980s, photographing arriving and departing Class 50s. Happy days!

Not quite.  platform 1 A, to the west of the end of Platform 1 was a designated parcels and milk platform together with Griffiths Siding which lay behind it and was accessed at the Ranelagh Bridge end of 1A (all this was following the 1930s alterations). As the prbcipal departure platform I don't think that No.1 was ever used for parcels traffic and it was never used - to my knowlede - for newspaper trains because of lack of road access.

 

Up ParccelssTrains were normally dealt with in platform 12 for many years as there was a separate Up parcels Office (the UPO) on that side of the station.

 

Mant y larger and mediunm sized stations had a parcels bay or one which was used for parv cels traffic (and often in the past milk traffic) for part of the day.  However fish docks yended to be separate for obvious reasons although once that traffic declined - as at Reading (WR station) the former fish dock was dedicated to handling GPO traffic while some became general parcels platforms.

 

Goods and passenger staffing were completely separate and i until 1967 had different pay scales and promotional diagrams so it woiuld be vrery unusual for goods rated traffic to be handled at a apassenger station.  But don't forget than an awful lot of perishables traffic e.g. milk) was either Passenger Rated so was handled at a passenger station) or could be consigned at either Goods or Passenger Rates and would then be handled at the appropriate place.

[SM42]

Is that a goods facility at Knapford?

 

Looks like a platform with some form of parcels traffic therein. 

 

Could it be just a siding?

 

But, I offer as examples under the roof, the Wall Siding at Marylebone. (OK not a goods facility with a platform and possibly a match for Knapford) and the East and West docks at Birmingham New St. 

 

The  later not the biggest but certainly had some form of end loading capacity in the past it seems as well as a platform face not used for passenger traffic .

 

Andy

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by SM42

[Trestrol]

South Shields second platform. Being a terminus station most passenger trains used platform 1. Platform 2 could be used for either with a loading dock at the back for transhipment to road vehicles. If you search Tony North Eastern on YouTube he has built a 4mm model of South Shields. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Trestrol

[Flying Pig]

13 hours ago, SM42 said:

Is that a goods facility at Knapford?

 

Looks like a platform with some form of parcels traffic therein. 

 

Could it be just a siding?

 

But, I offer as examples under the roof, the Wall Siding at Marylebone. (OK not a goods facility with a platform and possibly a match for Knapford) and the East and West docks at Birmingham New St. 

 

The  later not the biggest but certainly had some form of end loading capacity in the past it seems as well as a platform face not used for passenger traffic .

 

Andy

 

 

 

Birmingham New Street at Warwickshire Railways.   

[Compound2632]

All the real-life examples mentioned have nothing to do with goods traffic, being all for passenger-rated traffic: parcels, fruit, even fish. (Has the fish dock at New Street been mentioned?) Because goods and passenger traffic were different departments, at larger locations they inevitably had separate staff and facilities. 

[Aire Head]

People seem to be getting confused between stuff travelling in stock other than coaches and goods trains.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

All the real-life examples mentioned have nothing to do with goods traffic, being all for passenger-rated traffic: parcels, fruit, even fish. (Has the fish dock at New Street been mentioned?) Because goods and passenger traffic were different departments, at larger locations they inevitably had separate staff and facilities. 

To answer your question about New Street - 'yes', in the post immediately above yours.

 

Regrettably there tends to be considerable confusion between Passenger Rated and Goods Rated traffic and it is not helped - and in fact no doubr exacerbated - by various article sin books,  magazines, and on the 'net.  the confusion is also worsened by teh way things happened at one stage in some places under BR management (when goods smalls and parcels handling were combined especially for sorting and for collection and delivery) and the way privatised companies in particular have talked about or handled traffic which was once in a totally different category from their primary business.

 

A few things might help -

Mails -  Parcels Post and Letter Mail being separate and handled at stations in slightly different ways were entirely Passenger Rated.

Newspapers and periodicals - Passenger Rated

General parcels traffic - Passenger Rated. (but some similar items could be dealt with at a goods depot as Goods Smalls but in that case transits were longer).

Milk - Passenger Rated 

Fish - usually Passenger Rated

Accompanied vehicles - basically cars or carriages, Passenger Rated

Unaccompanied vehicles - could be either but increasingly were dealt with as Freight Rated traffic although some unaccompanied private cars still passed as Passenger Rated traffic.

Other Perishables - This is the most confusing area of all as depending on what it was and the quantity involved it might pass as either Passenger Rated or Goods Rated - depending also on the desired transit time.

Packaged or Processed Foodstuffs - generally passed in large consignments or at least a wagonload (andoften for warehousing) so was Goods Rated.

Tobacco products and Alcohol Products (again often for warehousing) Goods Rated

Livestock - Smaller animals and riding horses, including hunters, were normally Passenger Rated.  But large numbers of horses, ponies and donkeys were usually sent as Goods Rated.   Prize cattle, in particular as single animals, tended to normally be Passenger Rated but could be sent as Goods Rated (at lower cost).

General and specialised merchandise consignments over 1 Ton -almost invariably Goods Rated but some large consignments of smaller items, e.g boxed flowers, were sent Passenger Rated.

Iron and steel and coal and minerals  - Goods Rated. But note small metal products in smaller quantities , e.g. buckets, could be sent Passenger Rated

Explosives - Normally Goods Rated but small quantities of small arms ammunition and certain other things in small quantities such as small arms ammunition and fireworks could be sent Passenger Rated

Chemicals other than in small quantities - Goods Rated but certain chemicals in small quantities, e.g. in carboys, were permitted to be sent Passenger Rated.

Military traffic - depended entirely on what it was and how much of it there was.  Personnel went by oassenger train ir, in large numbers, by troop trains.  Troop trains could convey military stores and some vehicles as tail traffic.  Otherwise vehicles went by their own special train or by freight train. Technically Passenger or Goods Rating did not apply as military traffic was covered by its own special flat rates but the normal Conditions of Carriage applied to military personnel travelling at govt expense by passenger train.

 

Probably something I have firgotten and that s really no more than a summary.  In reality all this stuff was covered by books explaining the rates applying to just about everything you could think of from feathers to ingot moulds.  Plus if coutrse various restricyions and requirements applying to loading and what might or might not be allowed in the same train as something else if both were classified as Dangerous Goods.

 

Note also that things did change over the years but generally the above categorisation was pretty rigid until the1980s/early '90s except for Goods Smalls and  General Parcels categories where depots dealing with both appeared at some places during the  1960s - particularly for mail order traffic (which could be sent as either passenger Rated or Goods rsated depending on what it was and how big or awkward it was.

 

In certain cases the deciding factor was who was sending, or receiving the traffic.  For example in the 1950s and'60s woolwiorths did most of their distribution by rail direct from manufacturer etc to theis shops - it all passed as Goods Rated traffic. 

[kevinlms]

Don't forget the confusion about the difference between NPCS and goods wagons, often they looked virtually identical, but generally speaking the NPCS, were to a higher standard, notably vacuum brakes and longer wheelbases.

Vehicles like milk tanks, were passenger rated vehicles, although the casual observer usually thought of them as goods vehicles. When full they got dropped off at facilities usually around London, which looked more like a goods facility, so an easy mistake to make!

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Don't forget the confusion about the difference between NPCS and goods wagons, often they looked virtually identical

 

Easy if modelling the Midland:

Passenger rated stock - red

Goods stock - grey

Other companies similar, e.g. Great Western "brown" vehicles.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Don't forget the confusion about the difference between NPCS and goods wagons, often they looked virtually identical, but generally speaking the NPCS, were to a higher standard, notably vacuum brakes and longer wheelbases.

Vehicles like milk tanks, were passenger rated vehicles, although the casual observer usually thought of them as goods vehicles. When full they got dropped off at facilities usually around London, which looked more like a goods facility, so an easy mistake to make!

Now we're moving from areas of confusion towards chaos.  NPCCS - Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock  vehicles (e.g. GWR brown vehicles)  -were provided specifically for Passenger Rated traffic but, especially in later years, some such stock with fourwheelsy found its occasional way into use for Goods Rated Traffic.  But it's a reasonable bet for the modeller that NPCCS will be carrying Passenger Rated traffic.

 

However freight stock, particularly XP rated vans, was also used to carry Passenger Rated traffic and this became quite common in parcels working from the 1960s onwards although such vehicles had  ccasionally been seen as tail traffic with passenger rated traffic for years.   Loaded Conflats were another item of freight stock also sometimes used to convey Passenger rated traffic.

 

So apart from NPCCS you can't necessarily tell by looking at some vehicles if they were carrying Passenger rated Traffic or Goods Rated traffic although the train in which they were marshalled or attached to might give you a clue (as would the location where they were loaded/unloaded).  But equally Goods Rated traffic could no doubt occasionally - in the appropriately equipped wagons - be found attached to passenger trains as tail traffic when no alternative was available..

[Compound2632]

56 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But equally Goods Rated traffic could no doubt occasionally - in the appropriately equipped wagons - be found attached to passenger trains as tail traffic when no alternative was available..

 

I was wondering about that. For example, certain Midland goods vans, fitted with "passenger running gear" (according to the minute books - i.e. 3' 7" wheels, oil axleboxes, J-hangers to the bearing springs) and AVB complete, rated 6 tons Passwnger Trains, 8 tons Goods Trains. Would the consignment automatically be charged at passenger rates rather then goods rates if the vehicle was (sheduled to) run in a passenger train?

[Flying Pig]

A reminder we reviewed tail traffic (and mixed trains) recently in this thread:

 

 

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

A reminder we reviewed tail traffic (and mixed trains) recently in this thread:

 

 

 Which reminds me I dug out my 1956 Midland Division general appendix which has some interesting bits to add to that!

[magmouse]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Other companies similar, e.g. Great Western "brown" vehicles.

Yes, though noting that some vehicles were moved from the goods stock list to the passenger (NPCCS) list around 1915, and therefore changed livery - for example, Fruit vans. See discussion here: 

 

 

Nick.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was wondering about that. For example, certain Midland goods vans, fitted with "passenger running gear" (according to the minute books - i.e. 3' 7" wheels, oil axleboxes, J-hangers to the bearing springs) and AVB complete, rated 6 tons Passwnger Trains, 8 tons Goods Trains. Would the consignment automatically be charged at passenger rates rather then goods rates if the vehicle was (sheduled to) run in a passenger train?

That's a good question.  I think it's reasonable as a general assumption to regard tail traffic as normally being Passenger Rated traffic.  But, especially on branch lines  there will, I'm sure, have been occasional Goods Rated traffic and that was certainly the case in later BR days (with photo evidence to prove it as in the example I am thinking of there was no way that a wagon loaded with coal could be charged at anything other than a coal traffic rate).

 

In earlier days - and even up to the 1960s - I suspect we will be entering a rather murky area around perishables traffic in particular.  For example back in the early 1960s I travelled on two occasions on DMUs  hauling tail loads of Conflats - a single one on one occasion and a pair of them on the other occasion.  Where they went/had come from prior to the branchline working and how they made that other part of their overall journey is a moot question but in both cases as they were speed restricted vehicles so could have been on no train running faster than a Class 2 passenger train and I doubt such services existed for their entire journey so logically some of their journey would more than likely have been in freight trains.  

 

So what did the containers contain and what rate were they charged at?  One of them, attached at Churston was an insulated container and would have inevitably contained either fish or - perhaps a bit less likely? - meat.  And the latter would more likely be consigned at Freight Rate rather than the former.  Hence you can see the likelihood of grey areas arising.  But as far as operating dept staff were concerned it was simply a wagon to be got from A to B and whatever rate it was charged at the first stage of its journey, as it was on a Bank Holiday Monday, would inevitably mean it being attached to a passenger train

 

16 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

A reminder we reviewed tail traffic (and mixed trains) recently in this thread:

 

 

You'll also find more about tail traffic and Mixed Trains here -

 

 

[The Johnster]

And then there were local instructions that allowed all sorts of things, such as attaching Presflos, normally classed as mineral wagons and not at all 'XP' rated though they were vacuum fitted, as tail traffic on passenger trains on the Bala Jc-Blaenau Festiniog (period spelling) branch.  This was authorised in the relevant Sectional Appendix (to the Rules and Regulations), and done to cope with the demand for cement on this branch in the 1950s and early 60s; there were several very large construction projects under way in the area at the time, including the Tan-y-Grisiau Pumped Storage scheme, Trawsfynydd Nuclear Power Station, and the Llyn Celyn dam.