Help needed to understand shunting options

[Longhaireddavid]

Hi there. I have been a US modeller for more years than I care to mention. However, I have got fed up with the cost of US stuff in the UK so I have decided to put my current stuff away and try a British layout. My problem with British layouts has always been a lack of knowledge. I grew up in Streatham, South London amid Southern Electrics so was never really exposed to steam and then getting into US outline all of the desielisation passed me by. I then lived out on the Liverpool Street commuter line so again missed out on diesels.

 

I have decided to take the (Oh No!) route of GWR in the 30s with a small 1.6m x .45m shunting layout as this is currently all the space I have. I do have a serrate modelling room but my wife's mother is living in there at the moment. She is 97. 

 

So, I have created a small layout based on Ashburton (again oh no!) but a little bit simplified as my wife insists that I have houses and gardens on the layout. I did this some years back with a Maerklin layout and she has never let me forget it. Anyway, down to basics.

 

This what I have laid out (in Anyrail).

 

It seems to be OK but I have an issue with the Creamery. I am planning on having a daily milk train service this. Let us say that I have three milk tanks ready for collection and a goods train comes in with three empties and four other wagons.  I need to run around the four other ones to get them into the Goods shed/cattle dock etc. but I think that I would have to leave the three milk wagons on the main track until I could come back and push them in, etc.

 

I could do with some advice as to how this would work and if it is feasible. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Longhaireddavid

[The Stationmaster]

Alas in one resect the track layout at Ashburton is not the modeller's friend because, unusually, it was permissible to shunt using a tow rope which readily solved the problem you face.   But luckily for your question the GWR is your friend and it is going to be a bit simpler than you thought - with a bit of luck. 

 

1.  As a general rule it was not permitted to convey milk tanks on freight trains on the GWR (only permitted where special authority was given and that would be highly unlikely on a line with a passenger train service - which I presume yours has).

2.  So that means your milk  tanks would be dealt with as tail traffic on passenger trains.  Although the words 'tail traffic' imply the milk tanks would be on the rear of the train they could also be marshalled between the engine and coaches as tail traffic could be placed at either end of a train.

 

Now you have some choices and there are one or two things you need to write into you back story. So-

3. If there is sufficient headroom between the release crossover points in the platform line and the stop block the milk tanks could arrive front and the n engine could shunt, probably only one at a time, the milk tanks via that crossover to the creamery siding.  And the same could be done to get the loaded tanks out and onto the back of a train (the length of the passenger train might be critical for the latter manoeuvre as the engine themn needs to run round but departing tanks could be spread over more than one train).   OR

4.  if the passenger trains are an auto train with a single coach then depending on gradients on the branch (back story) the milk tanks can still be attached but possibly not all on a single train,  Getting them into the creamery siding is simple - the milk tanks in this case are on the rear and once the passengers have alighted the autotrain setts  back clear of the first points and then draws ahead into the loop and then propels the tanks into the siding.  Shunting with an autotrailer attached was permitted.

The difficult bit is getting the tanks back out and in this case the engine and trailer will have to be split, the trailer left on the platform lone and then the tanks shunted as described at 3 above.  Once all the tanks are attached the engine runs round and works the train as a non-auto trains (and has to run t round at the other and recouple to the trailer as  it is simplest to have the engine at the branch terminus end.

[Longhaireddavid]

That will need some thinking about given my lack of knowledge of British Railways. However, I am keen for anything that adds movement and "complication" so I guess that I can go ahead with my plan.

 

I was planning to have an auto train so that would work quite well.  Mind you I shocks me how much even British outline cost. I thought I would save money by giving up on US stuff but it seems not.

Thanks for your help.

 

BTW, please ignore my signature. It needs changing!

Edited May 3, 2023 by Longhaireddavid

[Longhaireddavid]

On 03/05/2023 at 12:09, The Stationmaster said:

 

Things have changed a little. I have been down to my local model railway shop (Orwell Model Railways in Ipswich) and, having looked at all the option, I have bought a 64XX pannier in early BR colours. As I grew up in that era, I can relate and understand more stuff.

My question is - does your comment that milk weapons could only go on passenger trains apply to 1947-1956 ish?

[The Stationmaster]

On 05/05/2023 at 17:19, Longhaireddavid said:

Things have changed a little. I have been down to my local model railway shop (Orwell Model Railways in Ipswich) and, having looked at all the option, I have bought a 64XX pannier in early BR colours. As I grew up in that era, I can relate and understand more stuff.

My question is - does your comment that milk weapons could only go on passenger trains apply to 1947-1956 ish?

Yes.  Still not permitted unless special authority was given by the Chief Operating officer.

 

This applied until October 1966 when the Instruction was relaxed permitting milk tanks to be conveyed in freight trains 'when no alternative  service is available'. The freight train had to be either fully or partially fitted and the milk tanks had to be marshhalled next to the engine.

[Longhaireddavid]

Thank you. I think that I can now operate the milk service close to the optimum.

[Longhaireddavid]

Well, things have moved on but not for the better. For the first time, in all my time using 5mm foam core, the baseboard side girders have given way and need fixing. The only way out, without dismantling the whole this, would be to put some 2x1" along the sides to fix it. However, I have bigger problems than that.

 

I have decided to take it all down - I have the track laid and all the electrics and points sorted - and rebuild it in a more traditional way using plywood tops and 3x1 supports underneath (3x1 rather than 2x1 as the DCC point motors are longer than 2".

 

But...

 

Before I do, I want to resolve some issues that I have with the track layout. Here is the current layout (not fully accurate) from Anyrail.

 

The problem is the creamery. My plan is to have a morning auto train bring in either 2 x milk wagons or 1 x Syphon G and have them go out later (or vice versa - go out in the morning and come back at night). Shunting the auto train to get this to happen is a nightmare, even if there is a station pilot to help.

 

My wife keeps repeating - "keep it simple" so, help please. I am limited to 2 boards 4' x 2" as above with the fiddle yard as a simple single track that can be connected and disconnected easily. 

 

I envisage something like:

3 auto trains a day in and out

1 in with milk, one out with milk.

2 goods trains a day 

1 coal and one mixed

1 Saturday train with something like a Hall on the front of 2 coaches.

 

I have a small prairie, a 64xx, and auto coach, 20 or so goods wagons most un-fitted.

Potentially, another 64XX or similar as the local shunter which lives in the engine shed.

Potentially, a Bachmann Hall or similar with a couple of coaches.

 

I am retired on a tight budget.

 

Down to you lot.

 

[Nearholmer]

I think that you have to detach the loco from the auto coach. 
 

Arrive with auto coach leading, then loco, then empty tanks.

 

After unloading passengers, dogs, bicycles, perambulators and parcels, shunt the train to the cattle-dock road and detach the auto coach.

 

Shunt the creamery, take full tanks to platform road, run round them, collect autocoach, shunt that on top of the tanks, couple-up, test brakes, load, depart. At this stage, the auto gear doesn’t have to be connected-up, if time is pressing that can be done later “at the junction”, before the next trip back.

 

Stationmaster will tell me which, if any, rules I’ve broken, but I don’t think I have broken any, and maybe if I worked in this line I wouldn’t use the autocoach as such, I’d just haul it and run-round every time anyway. By having the loco “loose”, it could work the goods trains between the passenger services, and even operate mixed trains when goods traffic is light if that is permitted (which if it was my railway it would be!).

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

The basic factors are as follows =

1.Which end is the engine and which end is the autocoach, ? 

2.  Is there sufficient headrom to run both the engine and the autocoach coupled round whatever else is formed in the arriviningtrain?  and

3. Is there room to stable the autocoach in the engine shed siding?

 

The reason for sorting these things ia because which ever way round thee engine and autocoach are marshallef the other vehicles have ro be at the back of an arriving train and at the rear of a departing train.  And that means that at sometime the engine and autocoach jave to be able to move from one end to the other.  I am assuming that the engine is at the head if all arriving trains

 

Dealing with arriving milk tanks is easy - they ae on the back of the train and the whole train shunts bacj  from the platform onto the single line then towards the goods sidings before propelling the milk tanks into the creamery siding.  Your main potential problem is going to be having enough headroom the two freight sidings to all you to make that sort of shun.

 

Similarly the arriving freight and Mixed trains are easy to deal with - simply run the engine round and detach wagons off the rear and shunt them to where they are needed after pacing the autocoach in the run round loop.  the wagons and brake van for the outward mIxed Train are then positioned on the platform line and the engine then attaches the autocoach off the loop and shunts with it onto the wagns on the platform line departing with the autocoach trailing the engone - which doesn't matter heading in that direct with the engine on the front of the train,

 

The big problem is the outbound milk tanks and the only way I can see for doing that is to shunt the autocoacj to the endgine shed siding, the loco then draws the loaded milk tanks from the creamery and shunts with them onto the platform line where it runs round them.  Engine then goes to retrieve y the autocoach and the two then reattach at the platform in front of the milk tanks and away.

 

Onething which does seem od is the number of freight services.  unless you are runninga. number of Mixed Trains the number of trains for freight  reaffic seems excesove

[Grovenor]

And no need for a local shunter living in the engine shed and getting in the way of parking the autocoach. The train engines can do all the shunting required.

[Cwmtwrch]

A few random thoughts:

You could put a loading bank on the siding from the loop, behind where you have the cattle dock, with the dairy off scene and the rail tanks filled from a road tanker shuttling from the dairy. This occurred at Totnes, where the dairy was right next to the station, but without its own siding.

The cattle dock, which would be out of use by BR days, most likely, could then go roughly where the point to the dairy and shed currently is.

The second short siding front right could then go, leaving just two full length sidings, or this point could be moved to the left, making these two short sidings longer.

Turning the layout slightly so that the loop runs diagonally front to back, and moving the exit to the fiddle yard forward, may help with fitting everything in.

By BR days Siphons carried parcels, etc. as milk churn traffic had ceased.

A Hall is rather too big and heavy for a country branch, generally speaking; the two Saturday coaches could be handled quite adequately by the small prairie, which could also handle the freight if you wanted. I agree with the Stationmaster that one a day is most likely. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wheatley]

There is something in (I think) one of Harold Glasson's books (Firing Days?) about the amount of faffing involved in running round an auto coach. It's been at least 30 years since I read it but the gist of it was that, although on paper it's only a couple of extra connections, your fireman would hate you for making him have to do it.

 

My point is I suspect the autocoach would have remained attached unless there was a very good reason for it not to. That is, something like some dodgy track in the yard or a very sharp turnout incompatible with bogie vehicles, not just because some fiddling bit of paper in a Rule Book said it had to be detached. Or your driver hated you and believed in the purification of know-all Jack The Lad firemen by pointless hard labour. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Wheatley

[Cwmtwrch]

4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

There is something in (I think) one of Harold Glasson's books (Firing Days?) about the amount of faffing involved in running round an auto coach. It's been at least 30 years since I read it but the gist of it was that, although on paper it's only a couple of extra connections, your fireman would hate you for making him have to do it.

I read his books rather a long time ago, but I think he did mention in one book uncoupling from an autocoach when he was a stand-in for the regular fireman, dealing efficiently with coupling, vacuum pipe, steam heating pipe, electric bell connection and regulator rodding [all at bufferbeam level], but forgot the overhead whistle cord, with very audible and embarrassing results.

 

I believe that he also mentioned that it was normal to roster senior firemen to WR autotrains, in view of the amount of time they spent on the footplate without supervision. Methods of operation would have been well established after decades of such working, while coupling and uncoupling at the driving end, or with a non-auto loco, which would have to run round at every reversal, was no different to any other coach.

4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

I suspect the autocoach would have remained attached unless there was a very good reason for it not to.

It could, as long as there were no passengers aboard; there were specific instructions in the General Appendix on how movements were to be carried out in such circumstances. Dodgy track would have been a bigger issue for the loco, as it had a higher axle loading, over 15 tons for a 54xx or 64xx, nearly 14 tons for a 48xx, against 7 tons or so for the coach. The 57xx commonly used for local goods trains had a 17 ton axleload.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Cwmtwrch
Changed 'non-driving end' to 'driving end'.

[Bungus the Fogeyman]

Just as an aside to all this. I'm assuming that milk is going out of the creamery, therefore would there possibly be a dedicated service for this, Depending on its desination (usually London I would guess) it could be that it starts from your station and collects other portions en route. Empties would be bought in by one of the  regular freight trains ( although more than one a day seems a tad excessive!). Would save a lot of faff with auto coaches...

 

Just a thought

 

Disgusting of Market Harborough

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/08/2023 at 11:27, Wheatley said:

There is something in (I think) one of Harold Glasson's books (Firing Days?) about the amount of faffing involved in running round an auto coach. It's been at least 30 years since I read it but the gist of it was that, although on paper it's only a couple of extra connections, your fireman would hate you for making him have to do it.

 

My point is I suspect the autocoach would have remained attached unless there was a very good reason for it not to. That is, something like some dodgy track in the yard or a very sharp turnout incompatible with bogie vehicles, not just because some fiddling bit of paper in a Rule Book said it had to be detached. Or your driver hated you and believed in the purification of know-all Jack The Lad firemen by pointless hard labour. 

On the Western it was permitted to shunt with an autocoach attached so no need to detach it unless the vehicle happened to be barred from any sidings which had to be shunted.  

 

According to a chap I knew (one of my supervisors at one time in the West Country) who had fired  on auto trains in BR days it was not unknown in places out of the eyes of officialdom to run with only the electric bell circuit and vacuum bag connected between the engine and the trailer.  This seems to have happened as much as anything because of problems with the regulator control rodding as for any other reason.  As he said the Fireman had to do everything else when the Driver wasn't on the engine so adding the regulator to the list didn't make much difference.

 

The thing about using only senior Firemen on auto trains seems to be oft repeated and might possibly have happened at some placers but there were places were the firing turns on auto-trains were in the lowest Firemen's link or indeed where all Firemen were in a single link.  And at places with staff shortages newly appointed Firemen were definitely used on firing turns on branch auto trains (e.g. Slough shed).

 

As I think I mentioned previously it was forbidden on the GWR to attach milk tanks - loaded or empty - to freight trains unless special written authority had been issued by  (as the job was at one time) the Supt of The Line.  This restriction definitely lasted well into BR days until it was ended in, I think (without checking the date),  the very late 1950s or early '60s.  And just to prove its validity once empty milk tanks began to be conveyed on mainline freight trains a spate of derailments followed.

 

Milk tanks could be conveyed, without restriction other than limitation of speed (which was gradually lowered over the years) on any passenger train.   That included auto trains and there was one working where that regularly happened and probably others.