Improving Hornby's Gresley Coaches

[West_riding]

Last weekend a friend very generously gave me a large box of model railway stock. Included were three 1970s Hornby Gresley coaches. They looked very 'train set' like, so over the weekend I had some fun improving them. A couple of coats of wash darkened the sides down, followed by varnish to give a mild sheen like polished wood. The solebars were painted teak to match the real things and the interiors and seats were painted. Its something completely different to my normal era and rolling stock, but its been a fun little project and they look good behind an A4. Just need a couple more now to bring the rake up to a respectable five coaches. Nothing earth shattering as this seems quite a common modification, but I am happy with the results.

[BernardTPM]

Early versions of those coaches had BR1 bogies and black ends. The Gresely bogies were a big improvement in the early 1980s. Not only more appropriate but they also lowered the ride height, bringing the buffer height down.

[Captain_Mumbles]

I had a go at this a while back and I really enjoyed it.

I probably went a little far in that I shortened some of them to turn them into early full brakes and there is one where I increased the cargo section inspired by some photos. It was fun to do.

[sandwich station]

20 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

I had a go at this a while back and I really enjoyed it.

I probably went a little far in that I shortened some of them to turn them into early full brakes and there is one where I increased the cargo section inspired by some photos. It was fun to do.

 

You've got a nice finish on that. Any chance of showing use how you increased the cargo area?

[Captain_Mumbles]

Okay, here goes.

It is made of two brake coaches. I cut out the doors and panels, and joined them back together. Carefully and keeping in mind that when I cut, I had to lose the blade thickness on the side I didnt want. I guess you could say its a Hornby Railroad teak remix. Some of the panels are made from plastic card and strip.

If I could do it again I would have tried to save more of the roof on the one that I hacked up so I could have another go at the full brake. Get a nice hobby razor saw. They work well. Obviously I had not discovered them at the time of this one.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The underlength aspect of these older models can be used to advantage.

 

Two sleepers can each have an end chopped off and flat ends substituted; then mounted on three bogies to make a representation of an articulated 1st class sleeper pair.

 

And then there's the GE section 52' and GNR Gresley coaches beckoning...

[DCB]

34 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The underlength aspect of these older models can be used to advantage.

 

Two sleepers can each have an end chopped off and flat ends substituted; then mounted on three bogies to make a representation of an articulated 1st class sleeper pair.

 

And then there's the GE section 52' and GNR Gresley coaches beckoning...

How accurate would the twin sleeper be length wise?  You have wetted my appetite and perhaps my old Hornby Gresleys will soon fall victim to my hacksaw.     

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

4 hours ago, DCB said:

How accurate would the twin sleeper be length wise?  You have whetted my appetite and perhaps my old Hornby Gresleys will soon fall victim to my hacksaw.     

The overall body length of each body should be about 56', and the model bodies were about 55' once modified - obviously how they turn out depends on the compromises you make in the modifications. Bear in mind there are plenty of other detail compromises, but from two cheap bodies a decent lookalike of something that isn't available RTR can be conjured up relatively easily.

[Captain_Mumbles]

5 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The underlength aspect of these older models can be used to advantage.

 

Two sleepers can each have an end chopped off and flat ends substituted; then mounted on three bogies to make a representation of an articulated 1st class sleeper pair.

 

And then there's the GE section 52' and GNR Gresley coaches beckoning...

Do you have any links to references for these coaches? This sounds like a good project.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The ever useful Nick Campling drawings in the joint Jenkinson and Campling book: Historic Carriage Drawings in 4mm, which covers a useful range of LMS and LNER group vehicles, which I have had since about 1970.

[Dominion]

I have this type of sleeper pair project in progress. Well kind of in progress, it is about half done but I stopped waiting for a second sleeping car body and haven’t got back to it yet. I will post photos next week. 
Mine are no where near as good as Captain Mumbles brakes above though, and no paint yet either. 

[Captain_Mumbles]

Games Workshop paints are my secret.

The shades/washes Agrax Earthshade, Seraphim Sepia, carobug crimson in different various strengths for the wood and Nuln Oil for other grubby areas are your best friend.

I do a little more than that by hand painting on some wood grain effect but those paints are a good starting point.

 

And the other thing about these railroad coaches being short is they make your tighter than scale curves not look so sharp, having less overhang and all that. I'm not a massive accuracy freak and steer towards enjoying the art or craft of it.

 

Id like to tackle some articulated coaches eventually. I do have some old teak kits, the parts of which that would be cool to use on some donor coaches some day.

 

[it's-er]

We men!  When Hornby brought out their corridor Gresley coaches in the 2000s, followed before the end of the decade by their non-corridor Gresley and then, to my astonishment, Thompson non-corridor coaches, I thought that was the end of the old style Gresley coaches.

 

Recently I came across, however, ‘Bridsea’ by Tom Kirtley in the September 2014 issue of Railway Modeller. He had added “a three-coach set of Hornby old-style Gresley coaches, repainted to look like a well-used and dog-eared cross-country set.”  Unfortunately there was no side view of these coaches, but I was intrigued.

 

I came across a set of 3 on eBay for under £20, where the attraction for me was that there were two brake-ends; they had Gresley bogies, all with metal wheels; and they were LNER brown (largely unpainted plastic). I’m pondering whether to give them a number of coats of seraphim sepia wash, which may be what West_riding in the first post above has done; or to repaint them in LNER brown.

 

I’m more inclined to the second option, hoping to thin the paint significantly over Hornby’s 1st and 3rd markings and the coach number, so I don’t need LNER transfers. Should that be feasible?

 

John S

 

 

[Dominion]

On 12/08/2023 at 11:30, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The underlength aspect of these older models can be used to advantage.

 

Two sleepers can each have an end chopped off and flat ends substituted; then mounted on three bogies to make a representation of an articulated 1st class sleeper pair.

 

And then there's the GE section 52' and GNR Gresley coaches beckoning...

 

I pursued the twin first sleeper idea 34theletterbetweenB&D mentions. I stalled last year as I needed another sleeping car donor but I have that now so I should continue. I did both chassis already, and the 3 bogies and it runs well.

The length can be made very close to correct. The Window width and spacing is not quite right and I should try to fill one of the left hand windows. The right door on the corridor side shown has been chopped and moved in a few mm.  The compartment side will have different but similar compromises. Overall I think it will look like a twin first sleeper in a  moving train. When painted up like the old one on the far track I will be happy to run them with the more modern sleepers.  Tom

Edited August 19, 2023 by Dominion

[Corbs]

These conversions are fantastic, I love the ingenuity in the cut-and-shuts.

[Captain_Mumbles]

9 hours ago, it's-er said:

We men!  When Hornby brought out their corridor Gresley coaches in the 2000s, followed before the end of the decade by their non-corridor Gresley and then, to my astonishment, Thompson non-corridor coaches, I thought that was the end of the old style Gresley coaches.

 

Recently I came across, however, ‘Bridsea’ by Tom Kirtley in the September 2014 issue of Railway Modeller. He had added “a three-coach set of Hornby old-style Gresley coaches, repainted to look like a well-used and dog-eared cross-country set.”  Unfortunately there was no side view of these coaches, but I was intrigued.

 

I came across a set of 3 on eBay for under £20, where the attraction for me was that there were two brake-ends; they had Gresley bogies, all with metal wheels; and they were LNER brown (largely unpainted plastic). I’m pondering whether to give them a number of coats of seraphim sepia wash, which may be what West_riding in the first post above has done; or to repaint them in LNER brown.

 

I’m more inclined to the second option, hoping to thin the paint significantly over Hornby’s 1st and 3rd markings and the coach number, so I don’t need LNER transfers. Should that be feasible?

 

John S

 

 

John, if you check some of the pictures I posted above, you will see that I have managed to paint some wood grain, and the sepia/crimson/earthshade washes and managed to keep the heraldry.

I have added a picture of an upmarket version I am repainting. I acquired some of the high detail versions and was shocked at the weirdness of the teak finish on em so I have started redoing those too. Note how you can paint around the heraldry and even paint a wash over em without losing too much of that detail.

 

Good luck with your build. Please share your progress!

[Captain_Mumbles]

Also on the washes. I watered them down a little with some medium so I could replicate where some panels go darker in a gradient from one end to another. Mainly with the crimson shade as it is very powerful.

 

Dominion:

Great work on the sleeper coaches. What did you make your under frame support with?

 

Cheers,

Ben

Edited August 19, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles

[Dominion]

It’s just brass rod, soldered as a butt joints at the Queen posts. Then I have small bits of wire insulation over the brass rod to represent turn buckles and other larger diameter sections.  That approach seemed in keeping with the vintage of the tooling. I am sure much more accurate detailed parts are available. I don’t know the specialist suppliers and their list of bits very well as postage makes experimenting with small purchases tricky to Canada. 

[Captain_Mumbles]

I know exactly what you mean, Australia here. Bogies, wheels, loco detail parts, and bullhead track parts are the bane of my existence.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles

[it's-er]

Thank you very much indeed, Ben ‘Captain_Mumbles’, for your reply on Saturday above, in response to me.  That is most helpful and informative.  The wood grain/teak effect in your last photo above is wonderful.  Inspired by your description of how you did it, together with your photos, I hope we readers and modellers can achieve it too!

 

With many thanks, 

 

John S

[it's-er]

I’ve completed my three coaches, and am delighted with the outcome. They were LNER ‘brown’ (unpainted plastic!), and I gave them one coat of Seraphim Sepia; followed by a coat of Johnson’s Pledge ‘Formally known as Klear’ for a satin finish. 
 

After this, I didn’t use further washes, but went down the Mike Trice route, using burnt umber oil paint. You only need a small amount of burnt umber, mixed with Windsor and Newton Liquin Original. This is mixed 50:50 on a palette, and brushed on - Mike’s video on the link below explains all.   Left to dry, then a final coat of Pledge.

 

The compartment dividers in these coaches are far too prominent from outside, being in light grey plastic. I was using track grime on the bogies and undercarriage, and it is pretty much prefect for toning down the compartment dividers!  I painted the seats red in first class, green in third with some old Humbrol enamels. 
 

Here is the link to Mike Trice’s videos on RM, first post on this thread:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/153339-reproducing-lner-varnished-teak-painting-and-graining-with-oil-paints/#comment-5173836

 

And some photos:

 

John S

[rovex]

If I had a criticism, and it's not with the brilliant work you've done, it's the depth of the window reveals. Some near flush glazing would be the cherry on the cake

[Captain_Mumbles]

On 29/08/2023 at 04:01, rovex said:

If I had a criticism, and it's not with the brilliant work you've done, it's the depth of the window reveals. Some near flush glazing would be the cherry on the cake

 

I have pondered this same thing over many sleepless nights. Even though the vac form flush glazing is an improvement, they can look weird in that the windows look like they have a meniscus. I watched an old LNER video on youtube and noticed in the old grainy footage the coaches looked quite flush in real life. 

 

I have an old bunch of really old PC models kits. I don't like how they go together but it means I have a good source of inspiration and parts for a long time. I have noticed they are about as flush as they can get.. maybe too flush in that the coach sides are printed on clear plastic. Inspired by this, on my next batch of coaches I might simply cut the whole row of the windows out with a razor saw. Leaving some panels on for structural integrity. Then build the panels with thin plastic evergreen on a plane of clear plastic. This strip of windows and paneling should just glue in.

In my mind this is a time consuming but simple job. I first thought I might simply sand all the sides down and build coaches by fixing the PC models coach sides but that would be a waste of these beautiful coaches, as inaccurate as they are.

 

John: Those coaches are GORGEOUS. The only thing I would add is to vary the darkness (or lightness) of the panels a little. Since the Sepia flows nice and looks pretty, maybe just add another coat of that to some of the rectangles in a chequer pattern,  before your clear and oil wash???

 

Ben

[Captain_Mumbles]

Painting the interiors, even basic, makes a huge difference too.

 

[Dominion]

For the windows, I tried an idea I read probably on RMWeb somewhere. Use a 4B soft pencil to run around the thick inside edge of the window frames. I thought it does make a small improvement and is quick and reversible. 
I tried the vacuum formed glazing on an old Replica Mk1 and they seem not quite plane enough. I have not tried them on a Hornby old Gresley yet. I read somewhere that some micro crystal clear around the edge of the vacuum formed insert reduced the meniscus effect mentioned above but I have not tried it.