Improving Hornby's Gresley Coaches

[rovex]

5 hours ago, Captain_Mumbles said:

 

I have pondered this same thing over many sleepless nights. Even though the vac form flush glazing is an improvement, they can look weird in that the windows look like they have a meniscus. I watched an old LNER video on youtube and noticed in the old grainy footage the coaches looked quite flush in real life. 

 

I have an old bunch of really old PC models kits. I don't like how they go together but it means I have a good source of inspiration and parts for a long time. I have noticed they are about as flush as they can get.. maybe too flush in that the coach sides are printed on clear plastic. Inspired by this, on my next batch of coaches I might simply cut the whole row of the windows out with a razor saw. Leaving some panels on for structural integrity. Then build the panels with thin plastic evergreen on a plane of clear plastic. This strip of windows and paneling should just glue in.

In my mind this is a time consuming but simple job. I first thought I might simply sand all the sides down and build coaches by fixing the PC models coach sides but that would be a waste of these beautiful coaches, as inaccurate as they are.

 

John: Those coaches are GORGEOUS. The only thing I would add is to vary the darkness (or lightness) of the panels a little. Since the Sepia flows nice and looks pretty, maybe just add another coat of that to some of the rectangles in a chequer pattern,  before your clear and oil wash???

 

Ben

Could you perhaps get away with individual cut panes for the larger windows, they seem to be a standard size. Cut to fit into the frames and then put the glass behind for the dropframes in the doors?

[it's-er]

On 10/09/2023 at 15:52, rovex said:

Could you perhaps get away with individual cut panes for the larger windows, they seem to be a standard size. Cut to fit into the frames and then put the glass behind for the dropframes in the doors?

I’m sure you could “get away with it”, but it would be a LOT of work!  Unless Shawplan do glazing for these coaches, but I don’t think they do.  Rather more time and effort than I am prepared to spend!

 

For 2 of my 3 coaches, the glazing lifted out easily, so I was happy to put the burnt umber oil paint into the window reveals.  For the 3rd coach, I didn’t dare do that: it shows in my second last photo on the previous page. 
 

I'm going to try the 4B lead pencil idea suggested by Dominion. 

 

John S

[Captain_Mumbles]

On 10/09/2023 at 22:39, Dominion said:

For the windows, I tried an idea I read probably on RMWeb somewhere. Use a 4B soft pencil to run around the thick inside edge of the window frames. I thought it does make a small improvement and is quick and reversible. 
I tried the vacuum formed glazing on an old Replica Mk1 and they seem not quite plane enough. I have not tried them on a Hornby old Gresley yet. I read somewhere that some micro crystal clear around the edge of the vacuum formed insert reduced the meniscus effect mentioned above but I have not tried it. 

 

I think the Rovex idea will work, with a slight variation of Dominion's idea too. if you can get a thickish clear sheet, probably 0.5 mm, or even 1.0mm. Really thin stuff will be difficult to align and keep flat. Using Krystal Klear window glue will help.

On the darkening of edges idea, a trick from my model aeroplane building. A dark oil wash, like the Tamiya Dark wash, when added to a window forms around the edge, darkening sides and making the canopies appear thinner by one, hiding the light prism effect, and two, replicating the edge sealant or shadow effect. Three, polishing the wash focusing on the centre of the clear area adds to the weathering, making the area near the edges slightly cloudy, looks really good.  I also do this on my loco windows and it works a treat.

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles

[Captain_Mumbles]

On 13/09/2023 at 08:24, it's-er said:

I’m sure you could “get away with it”, but it would be a LOT of work!  Unless Shawplan do glazing for these coaches, but I don’t think they do.  Rather more time and effort than I am prepared to spend!

 

For 2 of my 3 coaches, the glazing lifted out easily, so I was happy to put the burnt umber oil paint into the window reveals.  For the 3rd coach, I didn’t dare do that: it shows in my second last photo on the previous page. 
 

I'm going to try the 4B lead pencil idea suggested by Dominion. 

 

John S

If you get a cotton swab, and dip it in thinners, you can scrub oil wash off until you get the desired effect. I use odourless solvent because it doesnt work as well, and every stroke removes little by little and you can control your shading.

[Dominion]

I searched for Tamiya dark wash and search results are black or brown panel line accent. Is that the product you use or something different ?

[Captain_Mumbles]

9 hours ago, Dominion said:

I searched for Tamiya dark wash and search results are black or brown panel line accent. Is that the product you use or something different ?

Yes! That is the one. Sorry about the mix up. Black panel line accent is my favourite.

Vellejo calls it dark wash, and is pretty much the same thing.

I will also add that the window needs to be glued in. The method of a clear pane hanging behind an opening will only work if you glue the pane on. The wash will run away if it isn't.

I hope that makes sense.

 

Ive just thought of something else too. The windows will look even better still if you paint the edges black. This will stop light prism through the whole pane.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Captain_Mumbles

[jessy1692]

On 16/09/2023 at 21:10, Captain_Mumbles said:

Yes! That is the one. Sorry about the mix up. Black panel line accent is my favourite.

Vellejo calls it dark wash, and is pretty much the same thing.

I will also add that the window needs to be glued in. The method of a clear pane hanging behind an opening will only work if you glue the pane on. The wash will run away if it isn't.

I hope that makes sense.

 

Ive just thought of something else too. The windows will look even better still if you paint the edges black. This will stop light prism through the whole pane.

Very good trick is painting the inside of the window frames, I tend to use a dark grey though as sometimes black can stand out a bit I have found but iv been mainly doing it on blue and grey repaint. Top tip!

 

Also great work on these coaches, i have a few lurking around so taking notes here.

Cheers

James

Edited September 21, 2023 by jessy1692

[Human8984]

Out of intrest How accurate are the Modern Hornby Gresleys? and are there any conversion ideas for those that people would be willing to share. ive got a few in BR maroon as they were much cheaper 2nd hand than their teak equivalents and want to get more to experiment on 

[DCB]

On 10/09/2023 at 15:52, rovex said:

Could you perhaps get away with individual cut panes for the larger windows, they seem to be a standard size. Cut to fit into the frames and then put the glass behind for the dropframes in the doors?

The  problem with individual panes on a layout model, as opposed to a showcase model,  is that they tend to fall out or worse fall in.  The old kitmasters were notorious for this,  and the reason mine were retired. My  attempts to use flushglaze always looked warped, For locos I took to using thick clear plastic cut to dead size and just pressed in or filed to leave a flange on the inside and glued, but glue marks always seemed unavoidable.      It looks to me like @ it's-er   's coaches window edges caught the light from  the camera flash, but the cost/ benefit trade off for flush glazing is pretty well loaded towards a lot of effort for a small gain, except on large layouts when you see the trains approach and the light flashes off the windows.  You could always do one side if you only see one side...    For me the big easy win is getting rid of the Triang / Hornby white line from the glazing.  I thing Gresleys used chromium rails inside the windows, other were brass or wood but no full size railway painted a white line on the windows...    I have been tarting up old Triang and Grafar coaches with celluloid glazing which has warped, shrunk and distorted and am wondering about using actual glass. That seems to last for ever.   Failing that it will be old crystal clear CD case lids 

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Human8984 said:

Out of intrest How accurate are the Modern Hornby Gresleys? and are there any conversion ideas for those that people would be willing to share. ive got a few in BR maroon as they were much cheaper 2nd hand than their teak equivalents and want to get more to experiment on 

 

Very accurate. Although I believe the end profile is slightly wrong.

 

But it's a case of use them or build kits, as if you aren't a kit builder they are the only real option.

 

I also wouldn't dismiss the Kirk kits either. Some hints and tips on modelling Gresley coaches in this very useful thread.

 

 

 

Jason

[Human8984]

In regards to the new ones... do they correspond to any particular coach diagrams 

14 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Very accurate. Although I believe the end profile is slightly wrong.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

31 minutes ago, Human8984 said:

In regards to the new ones... do they correspond to any particular coach diagrams 

 

 

Yes. The days of generic models are pretty much over apart from those 4 and 6 wheel coaches by Hornby and Hattons.

 

No idea which ones though, LNER coaches are quite complicated.

 

This is a good website for LNER coaches.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/

 

 

Jason

[MikeTrice]

D1: Full First

D17: Sleeping Car

D113: Full Brake

D115: Full Third

D167: Buffet

D175: Corr Brake Composite

[Dominion]

The big problem with all the super detail Hornby Gresleys is the lack of tumblehome. The chassis appears to be too wide and the sides are too flat rather than turning in below the waist. 
The teak finish on all by a few is very nice but the shape is off. 
It doesn’t stop me running them but I really wish one of the manufacturers would produce some Gresley Diagrams in the correct shape.

At least this error easily justifies working on the older ones in this thread !

Tom

[Human8984]

On 23/09/2023 at 15:40, MikeTrice said:

D1: Full First

D17: Sleeping Car

D113: Full Brake

D115: Full Third

D167: Buffet

D175: Corr Brake Composite

Thanks! Much appreciated!

[Captain_Mumbles]

A while back, somebody alerted me to the fact that the 'brake' end of the coach is usually narrower. And this was after I made my modified long brake ended coach.  I do wish to fix it some day and so I have used an old brake for practice, inspired by Mike Trice's work. I used a razor saw, and some .025 plastic strip to replace what I cut out. I also practiced one flush window on that door. It took some time making it individually so will think about options.

 

 

The narrow body section is a nice touch.

[Captain_Mumbles]

This is a try at making flush windows. It was pretty easy to do. It is the window pane cut into a strip, and thin styrene sheet glued on top. It looks like it will look great once fitted and painted. Unfortunately I scribed the positions of the windows with a sharpened pick and didn't appreciate the thickness of the point, and also the taper of the mold rebate around window. I cut along this top edge of the window line and ended up with a window strip that was too short. Lesson learned there.

I tried it on a new window pane and it ended up being of a different material which wrinkled along the line that i had just cut with the blade. So will probably have to order a sheet of 1mm polycarb to get some consistency. I probably wont use clear evergreen as their thickest sheet is thin, .040 from memory and will probably be difficult to glue in so that it is flat enough.