Signals - Present-Day Semaphore, Lights and Repeaters

[uax6]

5 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

But surely if the power supply failed you would have lost CSR too as it need that new-fangled electricky.

 

I never once lost anything on the CSR. Ever. Completely stable, easy to use, well maintained, properly designed by telecom engineers, and very much missed.

 

Andy G

[ianathompson]

3 hours ago, uax6 said:

one of the drivers actually thought a bit and used his staff mobile to call the box internal number, so enabling him to stay sat in the cab!

 

I thought that this was the standard practice nowadays.

You amaze me that they actually went on the SPT.

I has assumed that they would call from the cab, on a mobile, as they sat next to the SPT.

 

Ian T

[uax6]

25 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

 

I thought that this was the standard practice nowadays.

You amaze me that they actually went on the SPT.

I has assumed that they would call from the cab, on a mobile, as they sat next to the SPT.

 

Ian T

 

I was surprised too, and equally surprised that the SPT still worked.....

 

Andy G

[SM42]

I too would be surprised if a train disappears off GSMR as soon as it passes your last signal, but regardless any dangerous situation in section should be communicated to the next box first, who would have the ability to make a call to stop trains.

 

GSMR  does have its own terminal and faults can be flagged, analysed and diagnosed  remotely. 

We recently had a call to tell us one of  the  cables was disconnected. ( happened during a desk swap) 

 

I can see many good aspects of GSMR that CSR didn't appear to have, but having little experience of the latter and only limited experience of the interim ( IVRS?)  I could be wrong. 

 

Certainly better than NRN though. 

 

 

Andy

 

[uax6]

Wet string, a piece of paper and a lump of ballast was better than NRN!

 

Andy G

[phil_sutters]

Eastbourne today -  the repeater has been shown above. The signal box is now redundant and its name board has been removed. On some enthusiast's wall now perhaps?

Edited July 7, 2023 by phil_sutters

[phil_sutters]

[phil_sutters]

A trio of not-so-present day ones from Lewes

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Nick C]

On 16/06/2023 at 12:07, The Stationmaster said:

Having done a bit of checking I'm fairly sure that the arrangements at Llangollen Goods as it is now has been 'locally engineered' to cater for whatever equipment they were or weren't able to get hold off as it is very different from the normal GWR method. 

The GWR effectively controlled everything through the Switching Out Lever - it controlled the switching of the token circuits and had a circuit controller to ensure that it could not be fully reversed until the through token circuit was proved and had been tested.  Once fully reversed it released the running signals in both direction over. the loop line which was signalled for trains in either direction - including those released by 'Token Out'

 

The 'free' indicators used on signals released by the token are a good idea if a 'box is worked by volunteers who aren't there regularly although I've never seen them anywhere else. it's not very clear hw the electric lock lifts as there's no plunger.   Similarly  I can't quite understand the situation with the FPLs - they seem to have no electric locks but appear to pull rather easily if they are lifting point locking bars - excellently adjusted stuff out on the ground perhaps. (does anyone know?  Has the locking been adapted to somehow work electric locks without a plunger to release them but there also don't appear to be any emergency releases on the FPL levers)  

 

And there is obviously no sequential locking on the running  signals which again suggests to me that things have been done in various ways to get round a lack of electric locks and relays etc

 

On 16/06/2023 at 13:17, Michael Hodgson said:

Heritage lines do have an issue of trying to run a service with volunteers who aren't there regularly.  Although a line typically runs every weekend during the summer season (and perhaps a few Santa services in winter), you don't necessarily have the same volunteer on duty each weekend.  Also some of the boxes might only be opened for certain busy weekends (diesel gala day, Thomas weekend etc).  Whilst they do need to be qualified to work the box concerned, volunteer signalmen may be asked to cover whichever box needs staffing today, more like a relief signalman on BR.  So there's rarely that detailed familiarity with the box and its idiosyncracies that the full-time BR resident signalman had.  There's a lot to be said for K.I.S.S. in this environment.

 

As for the free light on the starter, that's a desirable feature on equipment that only gets used once in a while, as such things can get sticky and stop working.  When they ring S&T to complain the starter won't clear, S&T (another volunteer, who happens to have the necessary technical knowledge) can ask the idiot question - "Have you got the Free light?" before travelling out to "repair" what might turn out to be a simple user error, while the punters are wondering why their train isn't going anywhere.  The line's Responsible Officer needs to have a good understanding of what practices are safe when (apparent) failures occur.

 

I believe sequential locking is a relatively recent feature in the history of semaphore practice, and can be considered an optional extra.  I think it was useful as part of controls which force the lazy signalman just leaving his running signals all the time rather than restoring after passage of a train, but that isn't an attitude likely to apply to a volunteer.  I was surprised that he was instructed to clear the starter out of sequence, but that does make sense if there is a chance of the (fairly infrequently operated) one-pull circuit dropping out.

Interesting to see the different practices from different companies there - as I'm used to ex-SR practice on the MHR - though of course I wasn't around in steam days so I don't know what might have changed as part of preservation practice. 

 

The electrical locks on our Stevens frames release as you start moving the lever, so no plungers. We have 'free' indicators on all the section signals, some with a light and some a needle repeater - I'd always assumed that was original rather than preservation-era practice. We also have sequential locking on most, and backlocks on all of our running signals - so the block shelf has a backlock release key as well as the emergency release for the FPL electric locks. 

 

As to staffing, we have four boxes, one of which is only switched in for busier timetables. Some signallers are passed for all four, others for fewer, and we have to do a certain number of turns each year in each box we sign in order to retain competence - I'm somewhat in awe of how the roster clerk manages to keep track of it all! 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

The electrical locks on our Stevens frames release as you start moving the lever, so no plungers. We have 'free' indicators on all the section signals, some with a light and some a needle repeater - I'd always assumed that was original rather than preservation-era practice.

 

IIRC this was standard Southern railway practice and any frames installed by them (or frames which had electric locks retro-fitted) would have used the initial movement of the lever to free up the locks and avoided the need for plungers (or 'nipples' as I understand they were sometimes referred to) being required.

 

This was in stark contrast to GWR practice which used plungers to free up the lever locks and its entirely possible that some boxes were westernised once the BR(W) got their hands on them in the 60s 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 17/07/2023 at 17:59, phil-b259 said:

 

IIRC this was standard Southern railway practice and any frames installed by them (or frames which had electric locks retro-fitted) would have used the initial movement of the lever to free up the locks and avoided the need for plungers (or 'nipples' as I understand they were sometimes referred to) being required.

 

This was in stark contrast to GWR practice which used plungers to free up the lever locks and its entirely possible that some boxes were westernised once the BR(W) got their hands on them in the 60s 

 

 

I don't think the electric lock release on Westinghouse A3 frames was altered by the WR - basically catch handle operated although I don't think there was a direct connection between the catch handle and the lectric lock.

 

In acasye the Wsrtern didn't have all taht many inherited A3 frames - just a handful of them on the Salisbury - Exeter line.  There might have been some mods when tokenless block was introduced but that wouldn't, or shouldn't, necessarily affect the lever lock - only the circuitry leading to the lock.

 

Working a frame where you don't have to plunge feels strange if you're used to working a Reading frame and your hand will autonmatically wander towards the block shelf to find, er, no plunger.  Incidentally WR circuitry used a separate sealed release for each FPL lever that was locked by a track circuit.  I've never come across a situation where that was not the case (and it would in any event be distinctly unsafe to use a single  release covering all the FPL levers in a frame as you are removing a critical locking function).

[LNER4479]

Appreciate it has appeared already on this thread, but as my train was signalled by it today, thought it worth posting.

 

The well-photographed bracket signal is the obvious target here but can't honestly say I'd noticed this canopy mounted signal at Shrub Hill before (I'm not often to be found in this part of the network).

I'm right in saying it's a main aspect signal? And it's in the form of a giant ground signal disc because a conventional l/q arm might ... er ... come dangerously close to a tall person's bonce in the 'off' position?(!)

Properly mechanically operated too (ie not a motor). You can just the wire run heading off left parallel with canopy bracket, then right angle cranks before disappearing in a covered vertical run down.

 

Is this allowed on this thread? The German way of doing it. Goslar, April 30th this year.

 

(I'll have a root round for some others. British!)

Edited July 18, 2023 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

Don't think the Harrogate-York line has featured so far?

 

Nearest signal here is a modern bracket (though still 'properly' worked); the one on the left though is a more traditional style. Only just discernible in the background is one of the last gantries on the system. Very hard to photograph (unless you're able to go trackside). These signals do see a bit more use these days now that the LNER AZUMA turnbacks use the station.

(2021 pic)

 

Knaresborough is just a gem. Note the stone-built signal box, in use.

 

The ground signals are used regularly to shunt the Leeds turnbacks because ...

 

... that bracket signal applies to the opposite running line (not sure of my 'down' and 'up' at this location - sorry)

(all 2018 pics)

 

 

[LNER4479]

Some Scottish ones:

 

Mallaig Junction, Fort William (2014). Think these still survive?

 

Aviemore. Apply to the mainline, not the heritage railway(!) (2016). Think these have gone now? (obviously, because they'd just been repainted!)

 

Boat of Garten, last year (seeing as how some preservation has crept in). Think these should survive a tad longer. Box switched out; one train in steam. Could be giving the Fort William one a run for its money in terms height? Are there any in the UK currently taller than this?

 

Blair Atholl, 2016. Still in use?

 

Pitlochry, 2009. Ditto (sorry - outside the stipulated 10 year timescale!)

 

A perhaps less well-photographed set at Stirling (from a privileged position in Tornado's support coach, 2013). These ones definitely RIP.

 

[melmerby]

23 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Some Scottish ones:

 

Mallaig Junction, Fort William (2014). Think these still survive?

 

 

Still there in March:

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

I'm right in saying it's a main aspect signal? And it's in the form of a giant ground signal disc because a conventional l/q arm might ... er ... come dangerously close to a tall person's bonce in the 'off' position?(!)

 

Yep, exactly!

 

Simon

[melmerby]

Aviemore has now got these (whatever they are):

[LNER4479]

Thanks. Pretty certain they (Fort William) were - I was there myself last month but forgot to check them out as we passed by on the Jacobite!

Edited July 18, 2023 by LNER4479

[St. Simon]

Just now, melmerby said:

Aviemore has now got these (whatever they are):

 

Hi Keith,

 

They are a pair of tri-state LED banner repeaters.

 

Simon

[LNER4479]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

Aviemore has now got these (whatever they are):

Yuck! Ah well, that's why you take pictures when you can😏

[melmerby]

Blair Atholl in April 2023:

 

Looks like Pitlochry has also succombed to the modern way:

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by melmerby

[St. Simon]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

Looks like Pitlochry has also succombed to the modern way:

 

Now that is a really good design, really smart on the part of the design team for that one, genuinely...

 

Simon

[Suzie]

On 12/05/2023 at 20:35, ruggedpeak said:

Much of the GEML is bi-directional for emergency with IIRC 2 aspect signals on the 'wrong' side, in Essex at least...

 

Bang road is 4-aspect - but the blocks are longer. There are several places on the A12 where you can see the single yellow and double yellow distants. I have yet to see any of them show green.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Appreciate it has appeared already on this thread, but as my train was signalled by it today, thought it worth posting.

 

The well-photographed bracket signal is the obvious target here but can't honestly say I'd noticed this canopy mounted signal at Shrub Hill before (I'm not often to be found in this part of the network).

I'm right in saying it's a main aspect signal? And it's in the form of a giant ground signal disc because a conventional l/q arm might ... er ... come dangerously close to a tall person's bonce in the 'off' position?(!)

Properly mechanically operated too (ie not a motor). You can just the wire run heading off left parallel with canopy bracket, then right angle cranks before disappearing in a covered vertical run down.

 

 

 

It is what was known on the GWR as a banjo signal and it was the GWR mechanically operated direct equivalent of a Sykes electrically operated banner signal - all of which have I think long vanished.  Yes it does look like a giant ground disc but it was/is very definitely a running signal with - in this case - a subsidiary signal.   I'm not sure if these came first or if ground disc signals came first (the half disc appeared on he GWR on ground signals from 1913 and a complete round disc style first appeared in the 1920).    

 

Worcester is their last resting place but they could be found elsewhere - with Gloucester at one time boasting a couple of them.  Far more common in this 'below canopy' situation was the use of centre pivot arms and I wonder if the banjo signals were tried out as a more visible alternative to them?

Edited July 19, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[31A]

20 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Only just discernible in the background is one of the last gantries on the system. Very hard to photograph (unless you're able to go trackside).

 

Luckily I was able to do just that, several years ago now before I retired.  I think the gantry has now got chunkier handrails, and the siding beneath it (on the left in the first photo) has been fettled up and is now used by the LNER Azumas as a turn back siding.