Track Underlay - what to use, and then ballasting (fingers crossed)

[ITG]

Hi

I’m about to start a new layout. Track plan is sorted, and some (laser cut ply) baseboards obtained. On my previous 00 layout (which was my first for 50 years!), I mostly used 3mm thick cork sheet as underlay, although I also experimented with some form of closed cell foam. Some of this foam was like a cloth material in that it was too floppy - maybe too thin? And I also tried a purpose-made (for railway modelling) strip of a better foam material, self-adhesive on one side. 
The new layout is on new boards in a new larger room, so I find myself wondering what to use as track underlay, and then whether to cover the whole board in it. I’ve read about using vinyl floor underlay, which comes cheaper than hobby stuff. So what’s the variety and range of current thinking?

I then need to consider ballasting. My previous layout sidestepped that (or I did!) and never did do it. Tbh, I’m a little daunted by the thought of ballasting a twin track mainline with station, reversing loop and storage yard, all in a 5m x 2.4m room. My main interests lie in electronics (this new layout will be computer controlled) and running trains. I like scenery, but am probably at the general impression end of scenic expertise (eg Metcalfe buildings). I suppose I’m asking the impossible - how can I get an acceptable appearance for ballast and track bed, without what seems a risky process of jamming up my turnouts, double slips etc? Is there a compromise? Or not?

thanks for any suggestions on either question - underlay and ballast.

Ian

 

[Type 2]

15 minutes ago, ITG said:

Hi

I’m about to start a new layout. Track plan is sorted, and some (laser cut ply) baseboards obtained. On my previous 00 layout (which was my first for 50 years!), I mostly used 3mm thick cork sheet as underlay, although I also experimented with some form of closed cell foam. Some of this foam was like a cloth material in that it was too floppy - maybe too thin? And I also tried a purpose-made (for railway modelling) strip of a better foam material, self-adhesive on one side. 
The new layout is on new boards in a new larger room, so I find myself wondering what to use as track underlay, and then whether to cover the whole board in it. I’ve read about using vinyl floor underlay, which comes cheaper than hobby stuff. So what’s the variety and range of current thinking?

I then need to consider ballasting. My previous layout sidestepped that (or I did!) and never did do it. Tbh, I’m a little daunted by the thought of ballasting a twin track mainline with station, reversing loop and storage yard, all in a 5m x 2.4m room. My main interests lie in electronics (this new layout will be computer controlled) and running trains. I like scenery, but am probably at the general impression end of scenic expertise (eg Metcalfe buildings). I suppose I’m asking the impossible - how can I get an acceptable appearance for ballast and track bed, without what seems a risky process of jamming up my turnouts, double slips etc? Is there a compromise? Or not?

thanks for any suggestions on either question - underlay and ballast.

Ian

 

I cover my boards in 5mm foamboard (as sold in Hobbycraft) and a further layer for my trackbed, this gives a good ballast shoulder, and can be cut into for embedding buildings etc.

 

I lay my track onto double-sided tape, then when happy with the position and the wiring is complete, I apply my ballast in the time honoured fashion using water/pva/detergent, taking care around the points.  

[zarniwhoop]

The big questions are: why do you want underlay, and why do you think  that covering the whole board might be a good idea ?

 

Certainly, putting a layer of something under the track, cut to fit, will help with creating  a sloped shoulder to the ballast. Of course, for that you need to know exactly where the track will be, and to be able to mark where the shoulder should be without glueing at or beyond the shoulder.

 

The other reason people have used underlay dates back to the trainset foam underlay that Tri-ang used to offer - supposed to reduce sound transmission.

 

I can tell you that on 00 flexitrack on nominal 5.5mm ply, conventional ballasting allows the plywood to act like a drumskin - enough to make filing grooves where the rail joints would be a worthwhile approach to getting the clickety-clack of moving trains. OTOH, for smaller gauges the weight of the stock is unlikely to be sufficient to support getting the sound of trains crossing rail joints, and if there are areas away from the viewing position the grooves should probably only be where you can hear the train approaching and going away.

 

OTOH, some people do not want the noise.  In the layouts part of rmweb there are many layouts where people have discussed how to ballast, and the pitfalls of various approaches.

 

So far, I've only done a test track with plain loops so I have no idea about the intricacies of ballasting points.

 

ĸen

[Ben Alder]

Big shout out for Tracklay - a roll of foam with an adhesive side that the track is laid on and pressed in place and ballast scattered on top, tamped down ,surplus shaken off, and a metre of track ballasted in less than a minute...it can then be curved to shape as required. I lay mine on top of a 5mm foam base which gives a silent, easily adjustable road bed. I have a blog on it but the images are gone. If you want I can post some here.

 

https://www.tracklay.co.uk/product/oo-gauge-underlay-5m

[DCB]

It sort of depends what you want from ballasting.   Good old 1950s Triang underlay does have the advantage that it looks like 1950s ballast, nice crisp ballast shoulder and nice crisp ballast edge, with sleepers just proud of the ballast. Even pre 1960 branch lines had these, often up to and after closure and removal of the rails.

A lot of people ballast the track with loose ballast and PVA glue because its the thing to do and if they model post 1970 scruffy mess era trackwork it sort of works, and if they model steam era it looks horrible.    If you build your layout  like a kitchen table with a large flat ply top acting like the  sounding box of a guitar then  PVA glue ballast will amplify the noise and maybe irritate the, dog, cat, missus, baby, neighbours , delete as applicable,  if you don't glue it then the flexi track straightens and dog legs at fishplates.  Stateside they have set track up to around 3ft radius curves in H0, maybe more so don't need to use sharply curved flexi, and the track keeps the ballast in place not ballast keeping the track in  place, They often use multiple levels and individual long thin track beds, with L or T girder supports rather than the kitchen table baseboards beloved by brits.  If all else fails looking at photos of track and its ballast during the period you are modelling is worth a punt,   The walking route beside the track, the signal wires to the Distant signal, and the trackside fences (required by UK law pre 1895 ish)   are often forgotten as people pour scale tons of gritty stuff onto dilute PVA to ruin their fishplates and gum up their points.   My piece de resistance was using cement for ballast and shorting the tracks with it. My latest plan is cement ballast shoulders with loose ballast between the rails.

Edited May 17, 2023 by DCB

[Vecchio]

I use 3mm cork as an underlay, I cut it myself, as then it does also fit points.  This is done just to give a nice ballast shoulder, because after ballasting any soundproofing is gone. To get 3mm cork cheap look for cork tiles (non adhesive). Probably not so cheap after the pandemic...

Happy modelling!

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Vecchio
Typo

[ITG]

8 hours ago, Ben Alder said:

Big shout out for Tracklay - a roll of foam with an adhesive side that the track is laid on and pressed in place and ballast scattered on top, tamped down ,surplus shaken off, and a metre of track ballasted in less than a minute...it can then be curved to shape as required. I lay mine on top of a 5mm foam base which gives a silent, easily adjustable road bed. I have a blog on it but the images are gone. If you want I can post some here.

 

https://www.tracklay.co.uk/product/oo-gauge-underlay-5m

Thanks, I’ve ordered a trial pack but would be interested to see a photo or two, please. How does the process you describe work for turnouts? I assume it’s easy enough to cut and shape the foam, but does the same approach to ballasting still apply?

ian

[ITG]

1 hour ago, Vecchio said:

I use 3mm cork as an underlay, I cut it myself, as then it does also fit points.  This is done just to give a nice ballast shoulder, because after ballasting any soundproofing is gone. To get 3mm cork cheap look for cork tiles (non adhesive). Probably not so cheap after the pandemic...

Happy modelling!

 

Does that mean you do not ballast on top of the cork?

Ian

[ITG]

1 hour ago, Vecchio said:

I use 3mm cork as an underlay, I cut it myself, as then it does also fit points.  This is done just to give a nice ballast shoulder, because after ballasting any soundproofing is gone. To get 3mm cork cheap look for cork tiles (non adhesive). Probably not so cheap after the pandemic...

Happy modelling!

 

Thanks. Am I correct in assuming you say “non adhesive” to allow easy removal for re-use or error correction?
What do you use to secure it to baseboard and track?
Ian

[ikcdab]

I am still a fan of 3mm cork and I stick the track down with copydex. This holds it firm but is removable.

I have tried closed cell foam,but I found it dented very easily which spoiled it. I have also used double sided tape to stick track down, but found it degraded and gave way.

You can buy the cork online in big rolls.  It is easy to cut.

Ian

[RobinofLoxley]

5 hours ago, DCB said:

It sort of depends what you want from ballasting.   Good old 1950s Triang underlay does have the advantage that it looks like 1950s ballast, nice crisp ballast shoulder and nice crisp ballast edge, with sleepers just proud of the ballast. Even pre 1960 branch lines had these, often up to and after closure and removal of the rails.

A lot of people ballast the track with loose ballast and PVA glue because its the thing to do and if they model post 1970 scruffy mess era trackwork it sort of works, and if they model steam era it looks horrible.    If you build your layout  like a kitchen table with a large flat ply top acting like the  sounding box of a guitar then  PVA glue ballast will amplify the noise and maybe irritate the, dog, cat, missus, baby, neighbours , delete as applicable,  if you don't glue it then the flexi track straightens and dog legs at fishplates.  Stateside they have set track up to around 3ft radius curves in H0, maybe more so don't need to use sharply curved flexi, and the track keeps the ballast in place not ballast keeping the track in  place, They often use multiple levels and individual long thin track beds, with L or T girder supports rather than the kitchen table baseboards beloved by brits.  If all else fails looking at photos of track and its ballast during the period you are modelling is worth a punt,   The walking route beside the track, the signal wires to the Distant signal, and the trackside fences (required by UK law pre 1895 ish)   are often forgotten as people pour scale tons of gritty stuff onto dilute PVA to ruin their fishplates and gum up their points.   My piece de resistance was using cement for ballast and shorting the tracks with it. My latest plan is cement ballast shoulders with loose ballast between the rails.

Could you clarify what you mean by cement ballast shoulders please?

[Vecchio]

9 minutes ago, ITG said:

 Am I correct in assuming you say “non adhesive” to allow easy removal for re-use or error correction?
What do you use to secure it to baseboard and track?

 

I say non adhesive because I do not trust the long term stability of adhesive layers in shed or similar environment (hot-cold and so on). There is nothing worse than a self adhesive layer that comes lose because of softener migration or whatever reason. So I prefer the non sticky stuff and I glue it down with white woodglue. To make it easier to go into bends I split those strips which go into bends in the middle, makes smooth forming around bends much easier. 

 

I also glue the track down to the cork base, of course during the time the glue sets I weigh it down and also use pins from the sewing box to hold them provisional in position. I am not a fan of track pins, try to imagine how they would look if they are 76 times their actual size. 

 

Probably I find some photos on the other computer. 

 

Happy modelling! 

[RobinofLoxley]

On my previous layout I bought some rolls of 6mm closed cell neoprene foam with double sided sticky tape and release paper one side. Cut to size with the paper in place, peel back, put the track on the adhesive tape, Sprinkle with ballast, purrfect. Amazing noise suppression. However for the rebuild I decided not to use it as over a large build there were considerable problems with stretching if the foam sheets leading to gaps and other troubles. It was also too thick so the shoulders looked ridiculous. 

[Vecchio]

Now I have changed computer (on the work one is not so much space for photo libraries, and no, I am not doing cloud storage (not really true, I also use flickr...). 

 

Just saw your earlier question - of course I use ballast, the cork gives the shape, the ballast gives the look. 

 

Here you see the cork underlay on my fiddle yard (in progress). I also ballast my fiddle yard, why should the operators not have something scenic to look at... 

IMG20221107112552 

 

And here a view of my layout Donnersbachkogel, done exactly as described above. 

20200209_174807 

 

or a little bit older: my Austro-Italian layout San Giorgio/Sankt Georg photo taken 2004

DSC02664 

And another one from Italy a few modules further up the branchline...

cIT4 

 

Hope this helps

Edited May 17, 2023 by Vecchio
typo

[Ben Alder]

16 hours ago, ITG said:

Thanks, I’ve ordered a trial pack but would be interested to see a photo or two, please. How does the process you describe work for turnouts? I assume it’s easy enough to cut and shape the foam, but does the same approach to ballasting still apply?

ian

 

I'll dig out some photos that still exist - most were lost when the IT disaster happened and I had dumped  a lot from my files but there are some about- just got to track them down. The points aren't any problem though. Back in a day or two.....

[ITG]

23 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

On my previous layout I bought some rolls of 6mm closed cell neoprene foam with double sided sticky tape and release paper one side. Cut to size with the paper in place, peel back, put the track on the adhesive tape, Sprinkle with ballast, purrfect. Amazing noise suppression. However for the rebuild I decided not to use it as over a large build there were considerable problems with stretching if the foam sheets leading to gaps and other troubles. It was also too thick so the shoulders looked ridiculous. 

Browsing through old threads on the subject of underlay, I saw that at one point you used something from Globe Packaging, but not the 6mm thick stuff mentioned here. Was it this or similar?

https://www.globepackaging.co.uk/1500mm-x-120m-roll-of-jiffy-foam-wrap-2-5mm-foam-thickness.html

6mm does seem somewhat thick?

ian

[Phil Bullock]

The point about the railway boundary is well made …. Walking routes, signal wires etc. In fact it’s a step further… 3 zones …. On a 60s railway ballast with neat shoulders, ash outside that , a strip wide enough for signal wires, point rodding and walking routes, and then grass to the boundary fence. Not unknown for signalling infrastructure to stray in to the grass!

 

I am another one for cork underlay and loose ballast. Here’s the start of the process on the new layout… 

 

Use N gauge ballast in 4mm and be careful around the points! I did originally add an ash outer strip but have then painted over with black acrylic to give a clear boundary between ash and ballast. The whole thing needs weathering now. Ballast and ash were dampened with a light spray of Daily Shower Cleaner spray before Ballast Bond glue was applied..

 

On this section the railway boundary is at the top of the embankment.

 

HTH 

 

Phil

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Phil Bullock

[RobinofLoxley]

2 hours ago, ITG said:

Browsing through old threads on the subject of underlay, I saw that at one point you used something from Globe Packaging, but not the 6mm thick stuff mentioned here. Was it this or similar?

https://www.globepackaging.co.uk/1500mm-x-120m-roll-of-jiffy-foam-wrap-2-5mm-foam-thickness.html

6mm does seem somewhat thick?

ian

That's the stuff I'm using now in place of the neoprene foam. I cut strips using the track as a template, then the strips are held down only by the pressure of track. I use track pins - can't see the problem as once sprayed with aerosol sleeper grime you can't see them. I haven't tried to ballast yet, not beyond a small test piece, but the plan is to use edging strips glued in place  with dots to form a smart ballast boundary (as per @DCB). Ballast in the sleepers will be left loose. (I haven't got a plan for ballasting curves yet). I can't find anything better than the dilute PVA method for stabilising it but as a general principle I'm going to use high quality PVA and dilute it much further so it's water thin. Was ok on test but I will need to do more extensive test pieces. With so much ballasting to do it will pay off I hope!!!

 

Plus - I didn't buy 120m there were rolls of about 20m which I have nearly gone through. Imagine the cost diff Vs cork. This stuff is really good for gradient transitions as you can 'pack' track sections to get very uniform gradient changes

Edited May 18, 2023 by RobinofLoxley
Extra

[Phil Bullock]

5 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

That's the stuff I'm using now in place of the neoprene foam. I cut strips using the track as a template, then the strips are held down only by the pressure of track. I use track pins - can't see the problem as once sprayed with aerosol sleeper grime you can't see them. I haven't tried to ballast yet, not beyond a small test piece, but the plan is to use edging strips glued in place  with dots to form a smart ballast boundary (as per @DCB). Ballast in the sleepers will be left loose. (I haven't got a plan for ballasting curves yet). I can't find anything better than the dilute PVA method for stabilising it but as a general principle I'm going to use high quality PVA and dilute it much further so it's water thin. Was ok on test but I will need to do more extensive test pieces. With so much ballasting to do it will pay off I hope!!!

Beware high quality PVA others quote it as discolouring ballast. Cheaper stuff gets better press…

[ITG]

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

That's the stuff I'm using now in place of the neoprene foam. I cut strips using the track as a template, then the strips are held down only by the pressure of track. I use track pins - can't see the problem as once sprayed with aerosol sleeper grime you can't see them. I haven't tried to ballast yet, not beyond a small test piece, but the plan is to use edging strips glued in place  with dots to form a smart ballast boundary (as per @DCB). Ballast in the sleepers will be left loose. (I haven't got a plan for ballasting curves yet). I can't find anything better than the dilute PVA method for stabilising it but as a general principle I'm going to use high quality PVA and dilute it much further so it's water thin. Was ok on test but I will need to do more extensive test pieces. With so much ballasting to do it will pay off I hope!!!

 

Plus - I didn't buy 120m there were rolls of about 20m which I have nearly gone through. Imagine the cost diff Vs cork. This stuff is really good for gradient transitions as you can 'pack' track sections to get very uniform gradient changes

Thanks. I assume therefore this stuff is stiff enough to sit flat on its own. It looks like some similar flimsy stuff (although mine was black) I tried once, although I don’t think it was 2.5mm thick.  And it takes paint ok?

[RobinofLoxley]

5 minutes ago, ITG said:

Thanks. I assume therefore this stuff is stiff enough to sit flat on its own. It looks like some similar flimsy stuff (although mine was black) I tried once, although I don’t think it was 2.5mm thick.  And it takes paint ok?

No its flexible, quite flimsy. No you cant paint it, at least not with water based paint, although acrylic seems to work, I dont think I would rely on it staying long term. 

 

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

Beware high quality PVA others quote it as discolouring ballast. Cheaper stuff gets better press…

I could write an essay on this..... polymer doesnt discolour, fillers discolour, think toothpaste...

[ITG]

20 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

No its flexible, quite flimsy. No you cant paint it, at least not with water based paint, although acrylic seems to work, I dont think I would rely on it staying long term. 

Ah, I see. So I guess you may have to rely on the ballast material to give it an appropriate colour, as opposed to the underlying colour acting as a base.

I’m rather hoping to find something with a ‘stiffness’ similar to cork, and that could easily paint. May have to be cork!

ian

[RobinofLoxley]

Actually the rippled surface looks ballast like, but obviously isnt - I consider it a good base for ballast. My baseboards are all painted grey. The neoprene foam I tried before was rigid, but having sticky tape one side was what pulled it out of shape. Otherwise its dimensionally stable.

[Sir TophamHatt]

Vinyl / lino flooring.

[ianLMS]

As with everything in this hobby, there are lots of different ways to do it, and several opinions. Here is what i do;

 

1/8" or 3/16" cork on a roll, the stuff thats sold at model shows and model shops is fine. I roll it out, loose pin it, lay the track using track pins, then cut the surplus cork away and re-use it on the next bit until tiny bits are left. Works on points no problem. I use Greenscene ballast which is not granite but crushed nut husks so does not go a blue/green when stuck down with pva. https://www.green-scenes.co.uk/store/product/gs409-ballast-4mm-scale-light-grey

 

Takes paint/weathering powder easy enough. I enjoy ballasting but i know many dont. For normal track i use a ballast spreader 

https://houseofhobbies.co.uk/product/proses-hooo-scale-ballast-spreader-20463?gclid=Cj0KCQjwmZejBhC_ARIsAGhCqndmFEN0xhUfegVY60d9GhHjkcLgehBfS1KRFpsbqIIIytQ2fgNoHi0aAkIAEALw_wcB aand a tea spoon for putting it over points. A gentle tap on the track helps bed the ballast down before wetting with a fine mist spray. I use one of these; https://www.amazon.co.uk/ZHIYE-Continuous-Aerosol-Hairstyling-Cleaning-5-4oz/dp/B09Q3K1JC3/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?adgrpid=51591034525&hvadid=259068590524&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=1007160&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12730124204834996837&hvtargid=kwd-296457035211&hydadcr=7754_1725757&keywords=fine+mist+spray+bottle&qid=1684435792&sr=8-5

Mix pva, water and a few drops of washing up liquid and use a dropper to place the glue over the wetted ballast. Around points, just be careful and regularly move the point blades. The dropper allows you to be very accurate so you dont get glue on top of the sleepers which will stick the point blades. Allow to dry for a few days and paint/weather to blend in.

 

Ian

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by ianLMS