Operating O gauge ground signals

[Halton Boy]

Now that Dapol have announced production of O gauge electrically operated ground signals I have produced a layout diagram based on a disused station being used as a goods yard.

If I use  DCC Concepts Cobolt signal levers and analogue point motors combined with Dapol motorised signals can I operate the layout by combining the ground signals and the point operation using one signal lever for the operation of the point and the ground signal.

Lever one operates the two ground discs and the cross over points. Lever one in normal position sets the disc signals to stop and the points to normal running.

Lever one reversed sets the ground discs on and the points to the cross over.

Lever two in normal position sets the top disc on and the bottom disc to stop with the points to normal running.

Lever two reversed sets the bottom disc on and the top disc to stop and moves the points to the yard.

I am not sure if this is correct.

 

The starter signal (5) and shunt ahead signal (6) are left over from the days of passenger working.

With the trailing crossing I am not sure that the shunt ahead would be needed, but it would be nice to have it.

Any advice is much appreciated.

Ken

Edited May 16, 2023 by Halton Boy
Text added

[RailWest]

I can't work out what 4 is mean to be ?

 

To be honest, if the station is now 'good only', I would suggest that ALL signals would have been removed and just the two connections off the main line worked from a small ground-frame.

[Halton Boy]

Hi Chris

I understand what you are saying. So I will change the layout so that it is the top half of a larger passenger station.

I just need an excuse to use signals on a shunting layout.

 

The levers for the points are 1-2-3-4 and the points have ground discs interlocked with them.

Lever 1 operates the crossover and the two discs.

Lever 2 operates the engine release and the two discs.

Lever 3 operates the point and two discs from the run round loop to the sidings B and C.

Lever 4 operates the point and two discs from the run round loop to the siding D.

 

On the protype I think the discs are operated by separate levers to the point levers.

The ground disc levers interlock the points via rods.  The point cannot be changed until the ground signal is operated.

Point lever number 4 operates the point for siding D and the two discs near the point.

The top disc is for straight ahead and the bottom disc is for the siding D.

 

I could wire the cross over so that  lever 1 operates the two points and the two discs as they move together.

I could wire the engine release so that  lever 2 operates the two points and the two discs as they move together.

Would it be easier and more like the prototype to have separate levers for point 3 and the two discs. Also point 4 and the two discs?

I will remake the layout and post the changes.

Ken

[Halton Boy]

Hi everyone

I have revised the layout and changed the signals.

1 starter

2 advanced starter 3 shunt ahead signal

5 engine release ground disc

6 engine release points

7 engine release ground disc

8 crossover ground disc

9 crossover points

10 FPL not modelled

11 crossover ground disc

12 home signal not modelled

14 head shunt ground disc

15 siding D points

16 siding B-C points

 

11 levers in total

I am not sure if I need to signal the points for 15 and 16

 

A set of points beyond home signal 12 gives access to the rest of the station.

Please tell me what you think.

Ken 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

What train movements do you propose? If incoming trains always arrive in the bottom road, rather than enter the yard directly, then crossovers 9 and 8 will be controlled from the signalbox, and may have signals for the more common movements, but points 15, 16 and the B/C points will be hand worked and not have signals.

 

You can even have trains entering the yard directly with this arrangement, but they would need to stop at 11 and wait for the crossover to be reversed. This sort of thing was common (although I am not sure how common it would be to have a single disc signal at 11).

 

If you want trains to be signalled into the yard directly without stopping, then any lines that can be signalled into will need points operated from the signalbox, and you'll probably need signals controlling the exit from each siding. Personally, I can't really see why you would do this, since a train entering road A, for example, would have the loco at the wrong end for shunting, and the rest of the train would foul the other siding points.

 

Assuming you can only enter the bottom road directly, then you'll probably have signals at 5 and 11 for running round, and you'll have a signal at 8 for trains exiting the yard. You'll need a signal at 1 if you expect to have a train on the bottom road at the same time as another train leaves the yard, but I am not sure that one would be provided otherwise. 14 is needed if you are likely to have a loco in the headshunt while another train uses the crossover, but it might not be provided otherwise, and whether or not there is a signal at 7 depends on what movements you expect. If you don't expect to have movements from the yard to the main line headshunt over 6 crossover, I doubt a signal would be provided.

 

Note that at signal 11, you need to be able to signal both routes. Some railway companies and some regions did this with one signal, whereas other places used two signals, one for each route. You might need to do the same thing at signals 5, 6 and 8, too. At 5, perhaps only the route over the crossover is signalled, and if you ever need to send an engine up the main then the signalman will show a flag. At 8, the route to the yard headshunt will be used a lot, but since it isn't onto a main line, it might not have a signal. Instead, the signal at 8 could be a yellow disc, cleared only for the route onto the main line.

 

Signal 14 (if provided) needs to be further back, before the fouling point with the main line, which is probably close to the switch toes on the main line points.

[Halton Boy]

Hello Jeremy

Thank you for your help.

I will read through what you have said so that I fully understand what I need to change.

 

The main problem that I have is that I am trying to put too much signaling into an area used for shunting, which did not happen on the prototype.

I will look at protype layouts to see what will work.

Ken

[dave55uk]

On 16/05/2023 at 08:10, Halton Boy said:

Now that Dapol have announced production of O gauge electrically operated ground signals I have produced a layout diagram based on a disused station being used as a goods yard.

If I use  DCC Concepts Cobolt signal levers and analogue point motors combined with Dapol motorised signals can I operate the layout by combining the ground signals and the point operation using one signal lever for the operation of the point and the ground signal.

 

Lever two in normal position sets the top disc on and the bottom disc to stop with the points to normal running.

Lever two reversed sets the bottom disc on and the top disc to stop and moves the points to the yard.

I am not sure if this is correct.

 

 

'on' and 'stop' mean the same thing. If a signal is 'on' then the train has to stop.