Why are there scrums at St. Pancras?

[VIA185]

It is the blurring of distinction between commuter trains (regular passengers/regular loadings) and 'airport express" which is at the root of the problem. Regular commuters (money in the bank) are being repeatedly inconvenienced in favour of 'casual' passengers on one-off journeys to the airport. The airport traffic needs to be separated as much as possible on purpose-built trains - as it was with Gatwick Express and Heathrow Express. It seems that anything involving Luton Airport has always been done on the cheap. (CJL)

[phil-b259]

42 minutes ago, VIA185 said:

It is the blurring of distinction between commuter trains (regular passengers/regular loadings) and 'airport express" which is at the root of the problem. Regular commuters (money in the bank) are being repeatedly inconvenienced in favour of 'casual' passengers on one-off journeys to the airport. The airport traffic needs to be separated as much as possible on purpose-built trains - as it was with Gatwick Express and Heathrow Express. It seems that anything involving Luton Airport has always been done on the cheap. (CJL)

 

The MML doesn't have any spare capacity for dedicated airport services and St Pancras hasn't got the platforms to terminate them in.

 

Its a downside of having the airport station on a mainline itself rather than a branch - airline travellers will naturally end up filling ordinary trains (even where there are in theory dedicated 'airport services') as anyone who travels through Gatwick will know.

Edited May 27, 2023 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I normally go into the office Tuesdays and Thursdays.  My trains to/from Waterloo in rush hour are normally perhaps 80% full. 

 

Today (Friday) I made an extra trip in; the morning train was perhaps 25% loaded after Woking (last intermediate stop) and the return from Waterloo at peak time, well my coach had four people in.  More people got off it when it came into Waterloo just after 1700 than when it left 20 minutes later.

It seems to vary by route.  I noticed at Twyford (on the GWML and pre 2020 very busy with commuters) that the car park was almost full on Monday just past.  But it has an excellent GWR fast service to Paddington - new extended to off-peak hours.   Plus Liz Line trains for anyone who fancies a less comfortable journey to London taking at least twice as long but doesn't want to change at Paddington now that the very simple Ealing Broadway  interchange has been lost.

[EddieB]

St Pancras for scrums, Kings Cross for hookers?

[RANGERS]

On 21/05/2023 at 12:26, 37079 said:

Just to set a few points straight:

 

- the class 360 refurb is still planned, just delayed due to the current cost challenges the industry faces. Very frustrating but when you see the demands on the public purse it's understandable, even if you don't agree with it.

 

- 12 car class 360 operation is not blocked by RMT, it is also in the pipeline. The current 8 car operation is driven by performance considerations (fixed 8-cars minimises shunt moves) and the level of unit availability that can be delivered until the depot works are completed at Cauldwell.

 

- the ECML midweek block was planned at a time during the initial recovery from Covid when it appeared that commuter v leisure demand had fundamentally shifted, which is not quite how things have panned out. There is a long lead time for planning engineering works and a considerable cost to changing them at short notice.  There is absolutely a cost incentive to try to package engineering works differently, but it caused some significant crowding issues for both EMR and XC and I doubt it will be repeated.

 

Mike

 

 

Sorry but this sounds like the propaganda that EMT have been punting for the last three years.

 

Yes, there is a ‘plan’ to refurb but there’s no timeframe for it, and currently no budget we’re told, so is that really a plan?
 

The impact of COVID is the veil behind which so many underperforming entities retreat when challenged on their failings. COVID is in the past (we hope…), get on with the day job now and build the business case to fund it. If you don’t have enough passengers to justify it now, doing nothing won’t increase the numbers, there has to be a pro-active approach beyond the ‘purple pillow’ (which I quite like and has been effective in raising awareness but such is the poor standard of the product, it’s merely trying to smear lipstick on the pig).

 

As for 8 cars instead of 12 being down to “…performance considerations…”, that sounds like we’re having to put up with reduced capacity because it’s easier for the railway, even if it means customers are having to put up with lower than promised standards of service.

 

The railway doesn’t exist for girls and boys to play with their trains, it’s there to move people and metal and when it places it’s own priorities ahead of those who pay an ever increasing amount to fund it (well at least most of it), then the sole reason for its existence disappears. 

[phil-b259]

48 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

Sorry but this sounds like the propaganda that EMT have been punting for the last three years.

 

Yes, there is a ‘plan’ to refurb but there’s no timeframe for it, and currently no budget we’re told, so is that really a plan?
 

The impact of COVID is the veil behind which so many underperforming entities retreat when challenged on their failings. COVID is in the past (we hope…), get on with the day job now and build the business case to fund it. If you don’t have enough passengers to justify it now, doing nothing won’t increase the numbers, there has to be a pro-active approach beyond the ‘purple pillow’ (which I quite like and has been effective in raising awareness but such is the poor standard of the product, it’s merely trying to smear lipstick on the pig).

 

As for 8 cars instead of 12 being down to “…performance considerations…”, that sounds like we’re having to put up with reduced capacity because it’s easier for the railway, even if it means customers are having to put up with lower than promised standards of service.

 

The railway doesn’t exist for girls and boys to play with their trains, it’s there to move people and metal and when it places it’s own priorities ahead of those who pay an ever increasing amount to fund it (well at least most of it), then the sole reason for its existence disappears. 

 

Please remember that EMR is now under direct control of the DfT and HM Treasury!

 

The management of EMR, like all other operators pretty much have to ask for DfT authorisation giving a pressing business case (complete with reams of supporting paperwork) before they buy a single pen these days!

 

As such I'm not surprised that the refurbishment hasn't started - the DfT are looking to CUT SPENDING not increase it so longer trains (which may require additional staff) and refurbishments are being kicked into the log grass for as long as possible.

 

Naturally the DfT and Hm Treasury will never admit they are the problem - thats why they like to contract out things so someone else gets all the public anger for any deficiencies.

 

As such if you are dissatisfied with the service EMT provide you need to go for the organ grinder not the monkey - i.e. your MP and this abysmal Government who are the architects of the 'cuts' agenda being played out in the railway industry.

Edited May 28, 2023 by phil-b259

[RANGERS]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Please remember that EMR is now under direct control of the DfT and HM Treasury!

 

The management of EMR, like all other operators pretty much have to ask for DfT authorisation giving a pressing business case (complete with reams of supporting paperwork) before they buy a single pen these days!

 

As such I'm not surprised that the refurbishment hasn't started - the DfT are looking to CUT SPENDING not increase it so longer trains (which may require additional staff) and refurbishments are being kicked into the log grass for as long as possible.

 

Naturally the DfT and Hm Treasury will never admit they are the problem - thats why they like to contract out things so someone else gets all the public anger for any deficiencies.

 

As such if you are dissatisfied with the service EMT provide you need to go for the organ grinder not the monkey - i.e. your MP and this abysmal Government who are the architects of the 'cuts' agenda being played out in the railway industry.

I do take the point that it’s not EMT who are ultimately in charge of this, and it’s not even DfT when HMT are holding the purse strings, but failing to engage with its customer base is unforgivable on EMT’s part, they’re hidden behind a woolly wall of advertising and bluster, and no matter how good that looks, it’s only concealing the cracks.

 

whilst EMTs bills and margin are underwritten by HMT, there’s no incentive to improve service or raise revenue, so do what you’ve always done and you’ll have what you’ve always had.

 

For the record, several MPs are aware of the level of dissatisfaction seem reluctant to challenge the situation, citing the universal excuse of “economic circumstances” etc.

 

 

[phil-b259]

46 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

I do take the point that it’s not EMT who are ultimately in charge of this, and it’s not even DfT when HMT are holding the purse strings, but failing to engage with its customer base is unforgivable on EMT’s part, they’re hidden behind a woolly wall of advertising and bluster, and no matter how good that looks, it’s only concealing the cracks.

 

whilst EMTs bills and margin are underwritten by HMT, there’s no incentive to improve service or raise revenue, so do what you’ve always done and you’ll have what you’ve always had.

 

For the record, several MPs are aware of the level of dissatisfaction seem reluctant to challenge the situation, citing the universal excuse of “economic circumstances” etc.

 

 

 

Have you ever considered 'failing to engage' suits the purse holders very well!

 

Take 5 mins to work through the answers to your complaints - because virtually everything you have highlighted (train refurbishment not yet started, train lengths not extended due to not enough staff or not enough rolling stock) require the management to spend money.

 

If EMT said 'We are going to start issuing refurb contacts immediately how do you think their 'minders' in Whitehall would react? - I can assure you there would immediately be a management reshuffle to remove managers that are not doing what Whitehall tell them too - which is basically 'you take the crap from the public and we will keep paying you to do so'

[Artless Bodger]

On 20/05/2023 at 20:06, Wickham Green too said:

Last time I was on a train was Thursday ............ Guard on outward train ✔️ Guard checked tickets ❌  -   Guard on return train ✔️ Guard checked tickets ❌ ........... revenue protection NIL.

Quite a change from an experience I had in the late 80s. I travelled from Maidenhead to Paddington after work one evening, and used a Network card (I think that's what it was) to buy my ticket at MHD. Not the usual guard but a revenue protection inspector (gold braid on hat) came along soon after MHD, I handed him ticket, showed card in plastic wallet, he insisted I take the card out and hand it to him. OK, on he went. Later he came back through the train, asked for my ticket again which I showed in the plastic wallet beside the card. He insisted I take both out and hand to him. I remarked that he had already checked both. As a consequence on each pass though the unit he insisted I remove both ticket and card and hand to him. The train (3 car unit) wasn't particularly full either, he must have had a very bad memory, or a very good opinion of his position.

[Enterprisingwestern]

15 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Quite a change from an experience I had in the late 80s. I travelled from Maidenhead to Paddington after work one evening, and used a Network card (I think that's what it was) to buy my ticket at MHD. Not the usual guard but a revenue protection inspector (gold braid on hat) came along soon after MHD, I handed him ticket, showed card in plastic wallet, he insisted I take the card out and hand it to him. OK, on he went. Later he came back through the train, asked for my ticket again which I showed in the plastic wallet beside the card. He insisted I take both out and hand to him. I remarked that he had already checked both. As a consequence on each pass though the unit he insisted I remove both ticket and card and hand to him. The train (3 car unit) wasn't particularly full either, he must have had a very bad memory, or a very good opinion of his position.

 

It's amazing what a uniform can do to some people.

 

Mike.

[VIA185]

The one aspect of EMT and the Corby commuter service about which my daughter has never complained, is the staff. They seem to do a darn good job despite the circumstances under which they work. And to be fair, not all Corby's rail problems are down to the railway. The station car park is administered by the local authority. The ticket machines are so unreliable that my daughter pays in advance, on line. She thus has no physical ticket to stick in the window - so she recently found that her car and most of the others who pay the same way, had been 'stickered' by a parking official, necessitating phone calls to avoid a fine. Apparently, most of the station car parking spaces are to be allocated to residents of a new block of flats being built nearby. A complete lack of joined up thinking which will eventually lead to the loss of commuters and the closure of Corby's third railway station at a time when field after field around the town is disappearing under housing being built for people, few of whom will be working locally! 

[Wheatley]

On 28/05/2023 at 09:20, RANGERS said:

As for 8 cars instead of 12 being down to “…performance considerations…”, that sounds like we’re having to put up with reduced capacity because it’s easier for the railway, even if it means customers are having to put up with lower than promised standards of service.

 

Because EMR aren't being measured on overcrowding, they're being measured on number of services run, on time performance and subsidy per passenger mile, so that's what they put the effort into delivering. If running 12 cars jepardizes that then they won't do it. The TOCs are prioritising what they're being measured on by DfT because (funnily enough) that's what their contracts say they'll do. 

 

The TOCs are currently there to provide the service specced by DfT with the kit and infrastructure provided by DfT. Somewhere else on here I've explained why the Wigan-Airport services were withdrawn to increase numbers if seats on the Bolton corridor and ease the number of services trying to squeeze through the Castlefield corridor in central Manchester. That was the result of a local consultation on which services should be prioritised, but what the DFT is not saying is that it was only necessary because they pulled the funding for platforms 15 and 16 at Picc, and 4 tracking between there and Ordsall Lane. They've just pulled it again but dressed it up as improvements to Salford Cresent instead.

 

23 hours ago, RANGERS said:

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/05/2023 at 16:01, Artless Bodger said:

Quite a change from an experience I had in the late 80s. I travelled from Maidenhead to Paddington after work one evening, and used a Network card (I think that's what it was) to buy my ticket at MHD. Not the usual guard but a revenue protection inspector (gold braid on hat) came along soon after MHD, I handed him ticket, showed card in plastic wallet, he insisted I take the card out and hand it to him. OK, on he went. Later he came back through the train, asked for my ticket again which I showed in the plastic wallet beside the card. He insisted I take both out and hand to him. I remarked that he had already checked both. As a consequence on each pass though the unit he insisted I remove both ticket and card and hand to him. The train (3 car unit) wasn't particularly full either, he must have had a very bad memory, or a very good opinion of his position.

The old BR London Division Revenue Inspectors were red hot (and the HQ Revenue Inspectors were even hotter) and if it was one of them - which it certainly sounds like - I'd be amazed if he'd forgotten a facewhile doing a. 3 car set.  I can also guess exactly why he did what he did because somebody being lax about showing any sort of reduced fare authority, such as a Network Card, immediately arouses suspicions.  And not having a card out of a plastic wallet ready for inspection when he asked to see it would be more than enough tp make some of those blokes suspicious or, probably in this case, make sure that he was making his point.

 

I knew several of them quite well having known them before they got. a Revenue Inspectors job and it was quite am using watching one in action on our branch back in the days when they used to carry out irregular evening ticket checks.  They used to rake in quite a bit of cash, and sometimes get a really good nab with not only people without tickets but also those using out-of-date season tckets or altreing the date on a season ticket..  I seriously doubt if anything got past them back in thise days.

[bécasse]

Four decades ago when I was a senior member of the BR HQ Pricing team, I used to commute from Brighton. One of the RIs on the route was quite a bright chap and I started asking his opinion on various changes we were making in the build up to the introduction of APTIS (and PORTIS). As a result he would often drop into my compartment for a (work-related) chat when he had finished "working" the train I was travelling on. This, of course, was when tickets were still printed on card and (on the Southern) put through NCR cash registers for the date and fare paid to be printed, but the expiry date on season tickets was rubber-stamped by hand in order to be readily visible. One evening the RI and I were discussing the security arrangements that would be carried over on to APTIS tickets and notably the non-standard abbreviations for the months of the year that were used on tickets, and especially season tickets, for example JNE instead of JUN for June. All of a sudden he put his hand up and said "that's it, I've got him", apparently there was a regular traveller on the train whose season ticket didn't seem right to the RI even though it was apparently OK, call it a seventh sense if you like. The RI had suddenly realised that the expiry date read JUL instead of JLY and thus the ticket was a clever (but not clever enough) forgery. We were still north of Haywards Heath at the time so the RI got the foreman there to arrange for police to meet the train at Brighton. Once the train had left Preston Park I went back as a witness with the RI who asked the man to produce his ticket again and, sure enough, there were the letters JUL in the expiry date enabling me to confirm that it was a forgery. This was explained to the police when they came on board so he was arrested for forgery, a serious offence likely to lead to a custodial sentence on conviction, and not fare evasion.

 

I subsequently heard from the RI that the man was a talented commercial artist who, having purchased one ticket, subsequently used his skills to "update" it each time it neared expiry. He had even very cleverly dimmed the NCR date of issue and amount paid entries so that they couldn't quite be read - something that sometimes happened with genuine season tickets. The Board's solicitor agreed to drop the forgery charge in return for full payment of all the fares that had been avoided but there was still a successful prosecution for fare evasion which earned the passenger a hefty fine (and criminal record).

[Northmoor]

Really good to hear the cheats being caught.  In TfL there is a lot of routine fare evasion but the combination of human intel and software that spots and tracks unusual travel patterns, means the serious repeat offenders generally get caught and prosecuted.  Being hit with a bill for your unpaid fares for the last three years generally hurts; repayments of a few thousand quid are common.

[Artless Bodger]

16 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The old BR London Division Revenue Inspectors were red hot (and the HQ Revenue Inspectors were even hotter) and if it was one of them - which it certainly sounds like - I'd be amazed if he'd forgotten a facewhile doing a. 3 car set.  I can also guess exactly why he did what he did because somebody being lax about showing any sort of reduced fare authority, such as a Network Card, immediately arouses suspicions.  And not having a card out of a plastic wallet ready for inspection when he asked to see it would be more than enough tp make some of those blokes suspicious or, probably in this case, make sure that he was making his point.

 

I knew several of them quite well having known them before they got. a Revenue Inspectors job and it was quite am using watching one in action on our branch back in the days when they used to carry out irregular evening ticket checks.  They used to rake in quite a bit of cash, and sometimes get a really good nab with not only people without tickets but also those using out-of-date season tckets or altreing the date on a season ticket..  I seriously doubt if anything got past them back in thise days.

I remember them being quite firm at Maidenhead in the morning peak at the entrance to the subway, physically blocking a 'smart gent' who cut it fine (he was after joining the fast I'd just descended from) and would not stop to show his ticket. He missed his train and used quite ungentlemanly language - the sort of thing that would have got him arrested these days. 

 

I'd never had to remove a network card to show both sides before - usually showing the front in the wallet window (the wallet issued with the card). From memory they were not photocards though, unlike the one I had to have for my monthly Reading - Maidenhead season.

 

At an earlier time, on a SR service from Reading to Waterloo I had my ticket inspected, and punched, 3 times en-route by the same inspector - ended up like a lace doily. Being younger then I was presumably obviously a 'wrong 'un'. 

[Re6/6]

When I was based at Exeter back in the eighties, we had a very, shall we say, overbearing RI who was six foot something tall and built like the proverbial brick s***house. His 'military bearing' was very intimidating for any miscreant although he was a lovely bloke off the job!

[Nick C]

On 27/05/2023 at 07:59, VIA185 said:

It is the blurring of distinction between commuter trains (regular passengers/regular loadings) and 'airport express" which is at the root of the problem. Regular commuters (money in the bank) are being repeatedly inconvenienced in favour of 'casual' passengers on one-off journeys to the airport. The airport traffic needs to be separated as much as possible on purpose-built trains - as it was with Gatwick Express and Heathrow Express. It seems that anything involving Luton Airport has always been done on the cheap. (CJL)

The problem with that is that dedicated trains are only of use to those going between the airport and the city. For anyone coming in from outside they're useless - just try getting to Heathrow by train without going into central London for example.

 

Most other European cities I've been to have the Airport served by conventional suburban lines - such as the RER in Paris. 

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Nick C said:

The problem with that is that dedicated trains are only of use to those going between the airport and the city. For anyone coming in from outside they're useless - just try getting to Heathrow by train without going into central London for example.

 

Change at Hayes & Harlington (but if you're coming from Reading or west thereof it's quicker to travel via Paddington anyway).

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Change at Hayes & Harlington (but if you're coming from Reading or west thereof it's quicker to travel via Paddington anyway).

 

Or easier still, take the RailAir coach from Reading.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Or easier still, take the RailAir coach from Reading.

Not in my experience as it happens.  But if you're paying full fares, especially on HEX, it is definitely cheaper to take the coach from Reading and suffer the delays at certain times of day..

[Nick C]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Or easier still, take the RailAir coach from Reading.

The coach is, strangely enough, not a train. Part of the point of getting a train is to avoid the (very high) risk of getting stuck in traffic on the M4/M25...

 

A direct train from Reading to Heathrow would open up access to large parts of the country (as Reading has good connections, usually, with the cross-country services), and was, IIRC, planned at one stage as part of the Crossrail service, but got dropped...

[Reorte]

On 30/05/2023 at 12:25, Nick C said:

The problem with that is that dedicated trains are only of use to those going between the airport and the city. For anyone coming in from outside they're useless - just try getting to Heathrow by train without going into central London for example.

 

Most other European cities I've been to have the Airport served by conventional suburban lines - such as the RER in Paris. 

I've not caught a train from Manchester Airport for quite a few years now, but it did raise a few eyebrows the last time I did when people were getting asked to try to avoid bringing a lot of luggage with them. An airport service will inevitably generate luggage, how can it be fit for purpose if it can't cope with it?

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Reorte said:

I've not caught a train from Manchester Airport for quite a few years now, but it did raise a few eyebrows the last time I did when people were getting asked to try to avoid bringing a lot of luggage with them. An airport service will inevitably generate luggage, how can it be fit for purpose if it can't cope with it?

Yep, that's silly. Most of the trains round here are rubbish for luggage space - there's none at all on most SWR stock for example. 

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

I've not caught a train from Manchester Airport for quite a few years now, but it did raise a few eyebrows the last time I did when people were getting asked to try to avoid bringing a lot of luggage with them. An airport service will inevitably generate luggage, how can it be fit for purpose if it can't cope with it?

 

That's fine where the stock is only used for airport services and all the people on the train are going to/from the airport, so Heathrow and Gatwick expresses. But a TPE train serving Manchester airport is also acting as a commuter service to/from Manchester and the north west, along the Leeds/York/Newcastle corridor etc. Extra luggage provision on those services mean fewer seats and less standing space unless you want to sit in the luggage rack. The Northern units could be on an Airport-Blackpool service one day and shuttling between Manchester and Liverpool the next. 

 

Some of the 158s used on TPE services had extra luggage racks for the airport services, I don't know how that compares with a 185 or Nova.