From a Star to a Saint

[rovex]

Reading the Dapol 28xx announcement I noted someone say the the Saint and the Star were identical except one has four cylinders and the other has two.

This got me thinking as to just how similar there were and whether you could fettle a Saint from a Star.

Without having got my ruler out I've been looking at the drawings of the two.

The following things look to be identical:

1. wheel base for the driving wheels

2. Size of driving wheels

3. Cab, so far as I can tell

4. Boiler and fire box

5. Front bogie give or take a couple of inches

Differences

1. Outside steam pipes, straight on the Saint, curved or elbow on the Star

2. Pistons, further forward on the Saint.

3. The front drop in the running plate appears to be sooner on the Saint than the Star, meaning the boiler appears to project more beyond the drop.

4. The total length of the Saint is 1 ft 2 1/2 inch shorter than the Star, which I think is all at the front.

5. No inside cylinders projecting in front of the boiler.

So does a conversion of a Star into a Saint seem feasible?

Rovex

 

 

[OnTheBranchline]

Murphy's Law is by the time you're all done with those changes converting a Star to a Saint, a manufacturer will have announced that they have made a new Saint OO model available for sale.

Edited May 23, 2023 by OnTheBranchline

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, rovex said:

 

1. Outside steam pipes, straight on the Saint, curved or elbow on the Star

 

You might be able to eliminate this as a difference by modelling Saints with no outside steam pipes; I believe all were in this condition originally and were given outside steam pipes at various later overhauls. 

[Halvarras]

6 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Murphy's Law is by the time you're all done with those changes converting a Star to a Saint, a manufacturer will have announced that they have made a new Saint OO model available for sale.

 

You're probably correct, the way things are going, but it depends on whether one relishes the modelling challenge! I stuffed a spare Bachmann pannier tank chassis under a Lima 94xx in full knowledge of Bachmann's impending model (which turned out to be not so impending....) because the challenge appealed - the result was good enough for me, the overall cost was considerably less than the RTR model and there's the satisfaction of 'I made that'. I suppose the decision revolves around, how soon do you want a Saint/how cheap can you find a Star donor (so that when Murphy's Law kicks in......well, see above), or are you happy to get on with other projects while waiting for a manufacturer to produce the required cutting-edge Saint.......which of course could be a long wait as this course of action will fail to prod Mr Murphy to initiate his Law!

We never had to face such dilemmas in the past - D I Y was usually the only way 😃!

[Hal Nail]

Engaging pedant mode momentarily, isn't it Sod's law?

 

Murphy's is that if something can go wrong, it will.

[BlackFivesMatter]

I would have thought that a Saint from a Hall and a Star from a Castle would be easier. But the GWR is a bit far south for me.

 

Good luck in your endeavour though. 

[Il Grifone]

44 minutes ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

I would have thought that a Saint from a Hall and a Star from a Castle would be easier. But the GWR is a bit far south for me.

 

Good luck in your endeavour though. 

 

Not impossible, but the first problem would be the totally different cab designs. Also the Castle has a larger boiler than a Star and the Saint larger driving wheels than a Hall

[melmerby]

Saint from a Star is the most obvious choice

Main difference as pointed out is the cylinders and the front end look because of the different size and position of them.

The smokebox saddle on a Saint is bigger than a Star but the Star has covers over the inside cylinders. (Very obvious at the front)

Early versions without outside pipes would be closer in appearance to each other.

Early square drop fronts on Saints include the Piston Valve end, Stars are plain.

 

The Hall has the same boiler pitched higher on the frame because of the smaller wheels, so will always look wrong as a Saint.

[Halvarras]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Engaging pedant mode momentarily, isn't it Sod's law?

 

Murphy's is that if something can go wrong, it will.

 

Er............🤔.........I do believe you are correct!

[rovex]

2 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

I would have thought that a Saint from a Hall and a Star from a Castle would be easier. But the GWR is a bit far south for me.

 

Good luck in your endeavour though. 

 

I did a conversion of a castle to a star, but the problem with the Hall is the wheels are bigger on the Saint compared to the Hall

[rovex]

We'll just picked up a Star for £70 plus post

[DCB]

There  is not much difference between the full size GWR Saint and Star, The first Star, 40 / 4000 just had  four cylinders, joggled front plate frames instead of front bar frames, short crank throw driving wheels front inside crank axle and then rest was pretty much standard early 1905 ish  4-4-2 Saint.

There were more  differences between production Star and "Saint/Court" series Saint but these were largely cosmetic with the running plate lowered in relation to the boiler centre line so it sat on and not 60mm above the outside cylinders , and a lower much less deep buffer beam supported by the plate frames with the buffers in the middle not the bottom. [ The Saints had deep buffer beams so that either 6ft 8 or 5ft 8 wheels could be used simply by re positioning he buffers although 6ft 8" were always used]   Both classes had the 90 degree curve from running plate to buffer beam,  but it was just that, cosmetic,  as was the cab end 90 degree curve to get the base of the cab side sheets to line up with the bottom flange of the tender tank. 

The first Hall was again a Saint with smaller wheels a raised buffer beam a sharper 90 degree curve between running plate and buffer beam and a larger cab but the production Hall had the boiler centre line raised 75mm in relation to the driving wheel centre line compared to the Saint so the boiler centre line remained the same as the Saint.    This means no other GWR loco has the same Boiler / running plate relationship as the Hall, they even. 

That makes conversion of Star to Saint very difficult, in fact converting anything else to Saint is difficult,  Grange is probably easiest  The boilers were interchanged between Saint and Grange, so its raise the running plate, new splashers, new deeper cab sides and roof, shorten the frames 4mm at the cab end, new six foot eight driving wheels with 30 inch throw and a new deeper curved plate from running plate to buffer beam level. 

To make like more difficult, the Saints with new cylinders and outside steam pipes have the frame drop slightly but noticeably further forward under than the smokebox (a la Grange) than the original curved frame drops.  It's a lot of fabrication to get the right "look"
I still work in the dark ages and I am trying to convert a Hornby Saint into a Saint which is quite a challenge
It might be easier to start with a Grange.   

Edited May 24, 2023 by DCB

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

The first Hall was again a Saint with smaller wheels a raised buffer beam a sharper 90 degree curve between running plate and buffer beam and a larger cab but the production Hall had the boiler centre line raised 75mm in relation to the driving wheel centre line compared to the Saint so the boiler centre line remained the same as the Saint.    This means no other GWR loco has the same Boiler / running plate relationship as the Hall, they even. 

That makes conversion of Star to Saint very difficult

That sounds confused.

 

The larger cab is also mainly illusory, the distance from the backhead to the rear of the cab is the same on a Saint and a Hall.

The frames are the same length, the boiler is mounted in the same place longitudinally.

The extra length is actually forwards, meaning the backhead protrudes into the cab more on a Hall.

 

[DCB]

20 hours ago, melmerby said:

That sounds confused.

 

The larger cab is also mainly illusory, the distance from the backhead to the rear of the cab is the same on a Saint and a Hall.

The frames are the same length, the boiler is mounted in the same place longitudinally.

The extra length is actually forwards, meaning the backhead protrudes into the cab more on a Hall.

 

You are right, I didn't take on board the cab extends further forward on the Hall which means the back of Hall and Saint cabs are the same distance from the rear driving axle.   

[rovex]

Anyone got a clue where I could get a spare set out of Hornby Hall valve gear. Seems to be out of stock with usual suspects?

[DCB]

Quite a rare model the 2000 era Hornby Hall.   You probably need to look elsewhere.   Hornby 28XX maybe.  Should be the same  as a 29XX  The full size wee the same.    Bachmann?

[TinTracks]

21 hours ago, rovex said:

Anyone got a clue where I could get a spare set out of Hornby Hall valve gear. Seems to be out of stock with usual suspects?

 

6 hours ago, DCB said:

Quite a rare model the 2000 era Hornby Hall.   You probably need to look elsewhere.   Hornby 28XX maybe.  Should be the same  as a 29XX  The full size wee the same.    Bachmann?

https://www.petersspares.com/p/Hornby-x8834w-class-28xx-2-8-0-loco-valve-gear-set-weathered

 

or these

https://www.petersspares.com/p/Hornby-x8834-class-28xx-2-8-0-loco-valve-gear-set

 

Hope this helps, Regards, Rich

 

[melmerby]

Is the connecting rod the same length?

 

EDIT it seems to be.

Edited May 26, 2023 by melmerby

[OFFTHE RAILS]

23 hours ago, rovex said:

Anyone got a clue where I could get a spare set out of Hornby Hall valve gear. Seems to be out of stock with usual suspects?

Err....GWR 4-6-0s did not have any external valve gear. They have  Stephenson's or Walschaert's valve gear inside the frames, out of sight. 

What you presumably want is the coupling rod, connecting rod, cross head with piston rod.  Unfortunately many spares suppliers and model manufacturers mis-describe what they sell and cause confusion for all. Rant over.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, OFFTHE RAILS said:

Err....GWR 4-6-0s did not have any external valve gear. They have  Stephenson's or Walschaert's valve gear inside the frames, out of sight. 

What you presumably want is the coupling rod, connecting rod, cross head with piston rod.  Unfortunately many spares suppliers and model manufacturers mis-describe what they sell and cause confusion for all. Rant over.

What about the rocker and piston rod?🙂

 

Many suppliers, sell the complete outside motion as "valve" gear, as it does include it.

Selling GWR sets as something different might confuse people.

[The Johnster]

28xx conrod/crosshead/piston assembly should fit, as should Churchward County and Large Prairie.  Cylinder/Slide Bars from 28xx and County will be suitable as well.

[DCB]

The 2cylinder  4-6-0s and 28XX use a longer con rod, than the  large Prairie, 4-4-0 County, 42XX, 43XX  which use the shorter con rods as their cylinders  are further back in relation to the driven axle and the 47XX which drives on the 2nd axle.(probably due to a lack of space for eccentrics on the 3rd axle.)

The original plan was all the above used the same cylinder and slide bars, but was changed to raise the boiler on the 28XX and to fit the smaller diameter smokebox on the 1905 ish 31XX.  The cylinders were cast in two identical halves which included half the smokebox saddle bolted together along the centre line which is why they had to be horizontal.  Post WW1 more variations with taller smokebox saddles appeared, as for no apparent reason Collett seemed to keep boiler centre lines constant across classes  also outside steam pipes appeared.   The slide bars were essentially identical but the 4-6-0s and 4-4-0s had their motion brackets inside the slide bars and the others outside.  Just like Bachmann...

[Steamport Southport]

Seems a lot of effort and cost to cobble something up from various parts.

 

Why not build the SE Finecast kit? 

 

Probably pick one up for about £30 on eBay. Comet chassis is £42. Most of the parts are available separately.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/lcp25/

 

 

 

Jason

 

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Seems a lot of effort and cost to cobble something up from various parts.

 

Why not build the SE Finecast kit? 

 

Probably pick one up for about £30 on eBay. Comet chassis is £42. Most of the parts are available separately.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/lcp25/

 

 

 

Jason

 

There is a complete one on ebay at the mo. Complete with portescap for £180:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225592644102

[Steamport Southport]

14 hours ago, melmerby said:

There is a complete one on ebay at the mo. Complete with portescap for £180:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225592644102

 

I was thinking more of a cheap project. Even if going down the altering RTR route, Finecast do supply the parts separately. And I'm pretty sure I've noticed the OP building kits, so it wasn't a "build kits instead" comment.

 

I paid about £50 for mine unbuilt with a full set of Romford wheels, but no chassis. I'll use a Comet one.

 

Funny enough that is going to be Dorney Court as well as I already had the plates which were another eBay bargain. It was also one of the last survivors so got BR livery.

 

 

Jason