MarkC Posted August 4, 2023 Share Posted August 4, 2023 18 minutes ago, johnofwessex said: I believe - and Mark you should know, it was fairly common on some diesels to be able to use one cylinder as a compressor for starting air The Lister is the only one I've ever seen, John. But that's not to say that there haven't been others. From memory these Listers were often found on ships at one time, as the first step in starting up from total "dead ship" conditions. And why not? I've seen Lister engines in small boats that had sunk at their moorings simply drained down after the boat was raised, fresh oil & diesel added & then cranked up. Away they'd go. A bit like the long-lamented Seagull outboard engines. Pretty much indestructable. mark 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted August 5, 2023 Share Posted August 5, 2023 18 hours ago, MarkC said: The Lister is the only one I've ever seen, John. But that's not to say that there haven't been others. From memory these Listers were often found on ships at one time, as the first step in starting up from total "dead ship" conditions. And why not? I've seen Lister engines in small boats that had sunk at their moorings simply drained down after the boat was raised, fresh oil & diesel added & then cranked up. Away they'd go. A bit like the long-lamented Seagull outboard engines. Pretty much indestructable. mark On the 1965 Ben My Cree there was a single pot Lister driving a compressor in the engine room To start from cold 1. Take starting handle and start compressor 2. When air reservoir is full, about 45 mins start one of the Ruston dynamo's 3. After about 45 mins it will be warmed through, so put 'on the board' 4. Light Spanner donkey boiler 5. When you have pressure in the boiler blow steam through tracing and oil heaters to clear fuel system 6. At about this time you need to have arranged a delivery of fresh - ie liquid fuel 7. Start cyclic firing of main boilers (2x Foster Wheeler D Type) 8. About a day later you are ready to go, Douglas here we come 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 5, 2023 Share Posted August 5, 2023 2 hours ago, johnofwessex said: On the 1965 Ben My Cree there was a single pot Lister driving a compressor in the engine room To start from cold 1. Take starting handle and start compressor 2. When air reservoir is full, about 45 mins start one of the Ruston dynamo's 3. After about 45 mins it will be warmed through, so put 'on the board' 4. Light Spanner donkey boiler 5. When you have pressure in the boiler blow steam through tracing and oil heaters to clear fuel system 6. At about this time you need to have arranged a delivery of fresh - ie liquid fuel 7. Start cyclic firing of main boilers (2x Foster Wheeler D Type) 8. About a day later you are ready to go, Douglas here we come That sounds about right for a steamer - motor ships are (usually) a bit quicker - no chuffin' big boilers to warm through VERY carefully... Oh, the joys... Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted August 5, 2023 Share Posted August 5, 2023 3 hours ago, MarkC said: That sounds about right for a steamer - motor ships are (usually) a bit quicker - no chuffin' big boilers to warm through VERY carefully... Oh, the joys... Mark Yes its when the owner says 'I hope you were gentle on the Starboard Furnace, its got a mark on it and we dont know if its a tooling mark or a crack' 'Oh, thanks so I could have shared the stokehold with 45 tons of boiling water forced out by 180psi of pressure, thanks Oz...' 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 10 hours ago, johnofwessex said: Yes its when the owner says 'I hope you were gentle on the Starboard Furnace, its got a mark on it and we dont know if its a tooling mark or a crack' 'Oh, thanks so I could have shared the stokehold with 45 tons of boiling water forced out by 180psi of pressure, thanks Oz...' Mmm, if anyone's in doubt as to what can go wrong with abused marine boilers then here's some scary reading... https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAB0703.pdf I'm sure I've posted this link before, but still... And there was more monkey business later... http://ssmaritime.com/norway-NTSB-report.htm This is some serious thread drift! Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 3 hours ago, MarkC said: Mmm, if anyone's in doubt as to what can go wrong with abused marine boilers then here's some scary reading... https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAB0703.pdf I'm sure I've posted this link before, but still... And there was more monkey business later... http://ssmaritime.com/norway-NTSB-report.htm This is some serious thread drift! Mark Don't read US Boiler accident reports, just don't Clearly a nation that no longer has any idea how to do steam, as indeed it seems do the Norwegians either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 6, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 6, 2023 51 minutes ago, johnofwessex said: Don't read US Boiler accident reports, just don't Clearly a nation that no longer has any idea how to do steam, as indeed it seems do the Norwegians either They very definitely got it - well just about everything - wrong with the Norway. The amazing thing is that it took so long to lead to a catastrophic failure with a boiler management approach which was that lackadaisical and ignorant. I wonder how many of the engineers even had Steam tickets?. As an aside one of the chaps working in Lloyd's Register's Sydney office when I was over there had a Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Boiler Inspector's qualification and I think he was the only person in the company there who held any sort of steam qualification or experience. The boilers weren't included when another Surveyor from the office carried out a Class compliance check on QE2 - and refused to let it sail until certain matters were rectified and he re-inspected her. Alas I was busy with what I was supposed to be doing so had to turn down his invitation to go along with him on his initial visit - from what he said he'd found that would have been very interesting. By very tenuous connection with the Norway I was part of a group which had a conducted in port tour of SS France when she was alongside in Southampton c.1970 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 7, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2023 I think that report was pretty damming. The thermal cycling was pretty horrendous, and the lack of proper water treatment, especially when shutdown, was also pretty grim. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said: I think that report was pretty damming. The thermal cycling was pretty horrendous, and the lack of proper water treatment, especially when shutdown, was also pretty grim. For me it was the suggestion that someone might have been depositing copper to hide the cracks that was the most worrying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Having a big interest in marine engineering, I do find all this very interesting, but wonder how we moved from locomotive cylinders to marine water-tube boilers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 1 hour ago, LMS2968 said: Having a big interest in marine engineering, I do find all this very interesting, but wonder how we moved from locomotive cylinders to marine water-tube boilers? The tide took us that way................ 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Major Thread Drift, MC & Lounge Bar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 2 hours ago, david.hill64 said: For me it was the suggestion that someone might have been depositing copper to hide the cracks that was the most worrying. You just can't understand the mentality of anyone who would take short cuts and/or not follow approved repair procedures when dealing with boilers, & especially those working at such high pressures. The sliding foot issue was also a big one - obviously nobody considered the risks involved if the boiler couldn't expand properly. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 7, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 7, 2023 Darwin award contenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 35 minutes ago, The Johnster said: Darwin award contenders. Well, quite - presuming, of course, that this was ship's staff & not some dodgy shore workshop... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 7, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2023 3 hours ago, MarkC said: You just can't understand the mentality of anyone who would take short cuts and/or not follow approved repair procedures when dealing with boilers, & especially those working at such high pressures. The sliding foot issue was also a big one - obviously nobody considered the risks involved if the boiler couldn't expand properly. Mark I job I used to get lumbered with, because I could get into the boiler wings, where there's not enough room to swing a mouse, let alone a cat. We could never undo the nuts and bolts and always had to get the burning gear out. The replacements had to be specially made, due to having a UNS thread. The boss, made us try and undo them for a week before relenting. Then there was the job of trying to get a jack in to lift the drum or header, to get the slipper plate out and clean it. There used to be a brown underpants moment when the jack broke the friction and the foot moved, cos it went with a big crack, we were expecting it, but all the others in the boileroom weren't, the panic gave us a good laugh. Sorry for the continued thread drift. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted August 7, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2023 4 hours ago, MarkC said: You just can't understand the mentality of anyone who would take short cuts and/or not follow approved repair procedures when dealing with boilers, & especially those working at such high pressures. The sliding foot issue was also a big one - obviously nobody considered the risks involved if the boiler couldn't expand properly. Mark The pioneers had an excuse for dodgy practices - no one knew much better! A learning curve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 8 minutes ago, kevinlms said: The pioneers had an excuse for dodgy practices - no one knew much better! A learning curve. Absolutely - and as we know, it usually takes the spilling of blood, or worse, to get rules & regulations in place to try & avoid repetitions - but there's no excuse in modern times for disregarding basic safety practices & techniques... Mark 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 7, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 7, 2023 1 hour ago, MarkC said: Absolutely - and as we know, it usually takes the spilling of blood, or worse, to get rules & regulations in place to try & avoid repetitions - but there's no excuse in modern times for disregarding basic safety practices & techniques... Mark Back in the days (on the mainline railway) of steam heated trains there was a laid down procedure to be followed when attaching an engine to a train and turning on the steam and, even more importantly when uncoupling to detach an engine. Just a matter of doing things in the right order and very logical so easy to remember but those who got it wrong could get something far worse than a splash of hot water down their trouser legs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 30 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said: Back in the days (on the mainline railway) of steam heated trains there was a laid down procedure to be followed when attaching an engine to a train and turning on the steam and, even more importantly when uncoupling to detach an engine. Just a matter of doing things in the right order and very logical so easy to remember but those who got it wrong could get something far worse than a splash of hot water down their trouser legs. Absolutely - and that was <only> low pressure, saturated steam. My present ship has steam heating, albeit only some 7 bar pressure - to me it's a step backwards. Give me thermal oil for heating purposes any time... Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 8, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, MarkC said: Absolutely - and as we know, it usually takes the spilling of blood, or worse, to get rules & regulations in place to try & avoid repetitions - but there's no excuse in modern times for disregarding basic safety practices & techniques... Mark Mr Lloyd, the WR Guard's Inspector who passed me out on Rules & Regs, stated he was happy with my performance and to let me loose on the railway, but to 'always remember, lad, that every one of these rules was found lying at the bottom of a bucket of blood', which in the early days it was. And I always did remember. Edited August 8, 2023 by The Johnster 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted August 8, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8, 2023 5 hours ago, The Johnster said: Mr Lloyd, the WR Guard's Inspector who passed me out on Rules & Regs, stated he was happy with my performance and to let me loose on the railway, but to 'always remember, lad, that every one of these rules was found lying at the bottom of a bucket of blood', which in the early days it was. And I always did remember. That is a very good way of putting it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted August 8, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8, 2023 22 hours ago, david.hill64 said: For me it was the suggestion that someone might have been depositing copper to hide the cracks that was the most worrying. Forgive me for further thread drift, but I read the report through-am I right in thinking that someone actually noticed cracks in the water drum, and literally hammered some soft copper pipe in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 29 minutes ago, rodent279 said: Forgive me for further thread drift, but I read the report through-am I right in thinking that someone actually noticed cracks in the water drum, and literally hammered some soft copper pipe in there? That or they attempted to seal the crack by brazing... ...the thought of either of those possibilities scares the **** out of me... Mark 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted August 8, 2023 Share Posted August 8, 2023 Having re read the report, and I am not an engineer, the basic lack of competence by people who were makes the mind boggle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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