! Warning ........ Network Rail Camera on class 707 ?

[Wickham Green too]

I've a sneaking suspicion these things have been discussed before - but without knowing what it is, I don't know what to search for ! : - 

 

 

Whatever it is, there's a WARNING notice in the leading windscreen !

 

Orpington 7/7/23

Edited July 12, 2023 by Wickham Green too
identified

[Lemmy282]

Think it is a Network Rail camera. Saw one on a 66 last year and was told it was to check signal sighting.

[The Johnster]

Then it’s mounted for too low and too far to the right to replicate a driver’s sightline to a signal, and will sight a signal beneath an overbridge or around a left-hand curve at significantly greater distance the the driver!  The driver has the advantage on right-hand curves.  

[Mike_Walker]

It's probably some sort of telemetry recording device not signal sighting.  

 

@The Johnster: 707s, like most modern units and locomotives, has a central driving position.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

It's a tail lamp camera, either one of the AIVR (Automated Intelligent Video Review) or Omnicom PVF (Positioned Video Frame) Cameras. 

 

It'll either being used for inspections or more for general survey to create scheme plans for signalling works.

 

Simon

[St. Simon]

3 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

It's probably some sort of telemetry recording device not signal sighting.  

 

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Then it’s mounted for too low and too far to the right to replicate a driver’s sightline to a signal, and will sight a signal beneath an overbridge or around a left-hand curve at significantly greater distance the the driver!  The driver has the advantage on right-hand curves.  

 

Hi,

 

It can be used for post commissioning signal sighting checks. It's not for checking the actual signal sighting, just check the signal has been installed and commissioned as per the Signal Sighting Form and that the sighting is roughly as expected.

 

They can also be used for desktop studies on sighting or help the sighting engineers with post SPAD checks and investigations.

 

Simon

Edited July 12, 2023 by St. Simon

[Southernman46]

It's also pointing downwards ........................

[The Johnster]

Which makes more sense than it being used as a sighting tool.  Signal sighting is less straightforward than it might appear to those not having job experience of it.  It should be a matter of being able to see the aspect from the driver's position in good time to respond to an adverse aspect, or to confirm that the line ahead is clear, but in practice there may be factors that compromise this.  For example, reading signals at a distance as is necessary at high speeds on dark nights in unlit countryside, where the relative apparent positions of the lights you are observing may appear to dance around and change position and perspective as you round curves between you and the signal, or that for a parallel relief line.  Or potential obstructions might appear after the signal is erected that need it to be repositioned, and repositioning can mak significant differences to the point at which the signal can be sighted.  The sighting point will be sooner for signals sighted from beneath bridges for drivers of multiple units with cab floors the same level as the carriage floor, but later for those with raised cabs, which is a feature of many high-speed sets. 

 

Another problem can be picking out signals in urban or heavily industrialised environments against a background of lighting of all sorts and colours.  I've seen drivers brake for yellows, then brake hard for reds, then realise they were looking at road junction traffic lights on dark or misty nights in such environments.  One can sometimes, on clear but black nights, sight aspects on different lines altogether that seem to be pointed at you; there is a place on South Wales Main Line near Newnham-on-Severn where one can see a signal about two miles away on the Midland Bristol-Gloucester route, but everyone knew this one so nobody got caught out.  A few miles back on the same route, coming off the Gatcombe riverbank section on the up, one could see the next signal past Awre Crossing, also about two miles away, a 3-aspect automatic, which it was tempting to take as confirmation of a clear route if it was green; in fac, there were a further three signals between you and it, including a semi-auto at Awre Crossing, a cautionary example against taking things for granted by first impressions. 

 

It's different when you are out there on your own in the dark, which is why many of my drivers preferred their guards to ride in the front cab with them; of course, it would help keep each other awake at stupid o'clock in the morning.  I recall a Welsh hymn-singing session on a 47 with oil tank empties coming down from Gloucester one night, tops of our voices, voices like nightingbats, great fun!!!  '🎶I bob yn sydd fyddlon...'🙉.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

The cameras have a wide field of view both in vertical and lateral plain, so even at the angle of the photo can be used as a preliminary info or post commissioning check tool.

 

I’ve used the footage it several times for preliminary desktop studies for signal sighting for various projects as well as survey info, general risk assessments and other tasks. I was in fact involved with authorising the Omnicom software used by these cameras (or one very similar) for use in NR.

 

Actual Signal Sighting is carried out using a number of different techniques 

 

1 - Most common nowadays is using 3D BIM models and virtual reality (although without the headsets) 

2 - Using Video Footage such as that captured by the cameras in the photo, but taken from the second cab seat or equivalent (with the committee using professional judgement to take into account the position of the camera. New Signals can be superimposed onto the footage using Omnicom software. If there is no better footage, then the footage from the position of the camera in the OP can be used for creating the initial Signal Sighting Form before confirming it with other methods.

3 - On site sighting using targets and periscopes, but this is being discouraged now to avoid people on track (and quite rightly to be honest) and the disruption it brings to normal services

 

Simon 

[Shaun66]

On 11/07/2023 at 21:11, Wickham Green too said:

I've a sneaking suspicion these things have been discussed before - but without knowing what it is, I don't know what to search for ! : - 

 

 

Whatever it is, there's a WARNING notice in the leading windscreen !

 

Orpington 7/7/23

 

It's a thermal imagining camera. The warning sticker in the window appears to be a NM (Non Multiple) Restriction.

[St. Simon]

9 minutes ago, Shaun66 said:

 

It's a thermal imagining camera. The warning sticker in the window appears to be a NM (Non Multiple) Restriction.

Hi,

 

I didn’t know that there were any train mounted thermal cameras, as far as I’ve seen NR does all it’s thermal imaging by hand held devices or by drone or helicopter.

 

I’m not sure if a train mounted thermal camera would provide enough data, especially at the angles they are mounted.

 

Happy to be corrected though!

 

Simon

[Shaun66]

9 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I didn’t know that there were any train mounted thermal cameras, as far as I’ve seen NR does all it’s thermal imaging by hand held devices or by drone or helicopter.

 

I’m not sure if a train mounted thermal camera would provide enough data, especially at the angles they are mounted.

 

Happy to be corrected though!

 

Simon

 

They have been used since June 2022, just looked at the operations notice at work. It combines thermal and visible images from the track that is sent back to NR to analyse in order to detect any track or infrastructure issues.

[jim.snowdon]

18 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I didn’t know that there were any train mounted thermal cameras, as far as I’ve seen NR does all it’s thermal imaging by hand held devices or by drone or helicopter.

 

I’m not sure if a train mounted thermal camera would provide enough data, especially at the angles they are mounted.

 

Happy to be corrected though!

 

Simon

The Southern routes are using trainborne thermal imaging to detect connection and joint failures on the conductor rail. The advantage of a trainborne camera is that the 750V system is under load, creating the currents that will cause defects to become hot.

[Edwin_m]

https://onebigcircle.co.uk/case-studies/network-rail/

[St. Simon]

11 hours ago, Shaun66 said:

 

They have been used since June 2022, just looked at the operations notice at work. It combines thermal and visible images from the track that is sent back to NR to analyse in order to detect any track or infrastructure issues.

 

11 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

The Southern routes are using trainborne thermal imaging to detect connection and joint failures on the conductor rail. The advantage of a trainborne camera is that the 750V system is under load, creating the currents that will cause defects to become hot.

 

Hi Gents,

 

Interesting, that development passed me by!

 

Simon

[Southernman46]

's a long way from the Mk8 Avo & piece of string to tie to the defective traction bond we used to use & hot CR joints generally showed up by being a slightly different rust colour ..........................