A difficult space

[Steam Revival]

Hi everyone,

 

We moved home last year and I was made up that I could finally have a hobby area all of my own, free from bikes, washing machines etc....   The space feels huge when there is nothing in it, but the shape is really difficult and to be honest I am banging my head against a brick wall (literally!) with regard to a design.

 

The room is in the loft, fully insulated and lined but there is a chimney breast intruding into the space.   It is a working chimney and cannot be moved, but on the plus side, it does provide background heating in the winter.  Unfortunately, there is no scope for enlarging the space and as such, it is what it is!

I am thinking of an end to end as I don't think I have room for a tail chaser, however, if anyone thinks I could incorporate one, I would be very interested to hear your ideas.

 

As I have said, I have spent a lot of time sketching out different ideas, but nothing really stands out as something I would want to build.  Therefore, could I ask the collective mind for ideas please?  I am hoping that a fresh set of eyes might help.

 

OO gauge, GWR / SR between the wars - DCC control - rural villages possibly a small industry such as a gas works.

 

Please excuse the plan, it is drawn in excel as work doesn't permit me to install anything on my computer.  

 

Thanks, Andy

 

 

 

[Schooner]

Full height throughout? Sounds great, and actually looks very usable!

 

There will come lots of questions about what you want from it, what (if any) stock you already have, resources you can put into the build, example locations/models you like etc etc etc. One which might be useful to know early on is how you feel about using a helix or two to gain your continuous run of circuit or dogbone?

 

But for now, first attempt at a first thought of a possible basic format. Several variations would be possible around the same theme, the below is the broadest of suggestions only.

From top to bottom:

• A junction gives scope to run both GWR and SR at once if you wanted, and a return loop gives out-and-back running*
• If the gasworks is 'downstream' (left) of the junction and an exchange siding** for it upstream, you could have coherent flows of full and empty coal traffic.
  • The return loop is shown of 4th Radius Setrack, meaning there is scope for some turnouts and loops within - perfect for hidden loops to exchange these fulls and empty wagons.
  • The 'hidden' curve of the triangle - to permit that circuit of full/empty coal wagons - is shown of 2nd Radius Setrack
• Nice long rural run - past a village or two
• Some sort of feature to mark the start/end of the layout. A small station or even halt would give a change of tone from the junction station, tie into the rural vibe, and give something for small trains to do and big trains to go thundering past...again, this works for me but is very much a 'season to taste' approach.
• Preferred method of crossing the doorway.
• 12" x 7 traverser - at least 7 tracks. Revise in line with desired train formation and length

*An improvement on simple end-to-end in my, but not everyone's, book

**Rather than marshalling yard, assuming I've understood the tone of the proposed scene correctly

 

First starter for ten!

Edited July 11, 2023 by Schooner

[Harlequin]

Here's a quick sketch for a single-track roundy-round:

 

It uses some R2 curves (the blue circles) but it might be possible to ease them out.

 

Two sides of the space form one continuous sweeping run of scenery, which faces you as you enter.

 

The rough idea for the "fiddle yard" is for cassettes, of 1ft and 4ft lengths that can be connected in different combinations at layout level and which are stored on shelves above and below the layout level. The thinking is that 4ft cassettes are manageable because they are only being lifted vertically on and off shelves - but that needs to be thought through!

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Harlequin

[DCB]

Does the roof slope intrude into the space and if so where and what height above the floor.  I can't see it in the OP @Schooner  mentions it but it makes a difference.

Does the door open in or out?

What minimum radius do you need hidden and visible, and what sort of train lengths, as in are gradients an option or not. there is a lot of scope if 2ft radius visible curves are an option but it decreases rapidly if you start needing 3ft radius or more.

How is your woodwork, can you do gradients and curved edges or do you need level rectangular table tops.   It's no good us coming up with flights of fancy if you can't build it.

I'm assuming walk in to main access spaces but can you crawl in to the minor ones?  

Do you want a lot of scenic run  as per @Schooner or is a big expanse of non scenic fiddle area like @Harlequin  acceptable. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by DCB

[Schooner]

It is possible to outsource any (or all) elements of construction, of course, and kits are available for a helix or a gradient or any other more technical bits. That sweet sweet time/money balancing act!

 

Another sketch to shew a possible scheme for a continuous run via return loops ('Dogbone' format) although could also be R2 helix to low level storage yard (eg). Access would need serious consideration.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Schooner
Ed: Sketch Mk.II

[33C]

Go Vale of Rheidol! O gauge bodies on 00 gauge track. (SM32?) 

[DCB]

A few parameters, my old dining table layout baseboard is 36.75" and the 2nd radius curve only just gave clearance for Triang Transcontinental Diesel trains to get round. The R2 helix might not fit if the 3ft was exactly 909mm.

An 18" gap is acceptable as a walk through and for a lifting access flap , 2ft for operating but  probably needs 3ft for 2 operators or visitors to pass.  My operating well should have been 3ft 6" but is more like 3ft 3" and its awkward with 2 operators working back to back lots of "Excuse me" etc.
I don't see much value in scenery in front of the tracks where access to the back is needed, and I don't like squared edges to operating wells, I find swoopy shapes in hardboard draw less attention to the abrupt end of the 4mm scale world.   Conversely  I like scenery under the tracks, bridges, lots of platforms are over rivers or roads for instance, points on bridges are common, even platforms on Viaducts (Stroud GWR) 

I was wondering  about a Denny style rotating fiddle yard, where on Buckingham, it had about 6 roads and when it was full he turned it 180 degrees to turn the whole train     There looks to be space for at least a 6  foot loco and 5 Mk1 coaches or maybe  7ft loco and 6.  

Or kick backs like Frank Dyers Borchester to make best use of the awkward shape

Edited July 12, 2023 by DCB

[the-Prof]

If that door opens outward like it appears on the original excel plan, then there is good opportunity to put a helix in the bottom right corner near the door then you can build two layouts one on top of the other 

[DCB]

4 minutes ago, the-Prof said:

If that door opens outward like it appears on the original excel plan, then there is good opportunity to put a helix in the bottom right corner near the door then you can build two layouts one on top of the other 

Lots of US layouts do that, often 3 levels and sometimes with main storage on the top near the ceiling.  Bit of an issue with traction for UK practice, I can see WC and Bob locos struggling with 5 or 6 Mk1s on a 1 in 33.  Certainly my 2000s Hornby WC wouldn't manage.

Could disguise the Helix shaft as a China Clay tip or Glastonbury Tor

[the-Prof]

6 minutes ago, DCB said:

Lots of US layouts do that, often 3 levels and sometimes with main storage on the top near the ceiling.  Bit of an issue with traction for UK practice, I can see WC and Bob locos struggling with 5 or 6 Mk1s on a 1 in 33.  Certainly my 2000s Hornby WC wouldn't manage.

Could disguise the Helix shaft as a China Clay tip or Glastonbury Tor

If you could stretch it to a 4x4 helix well (remembering that as a circle the corners can get cutoff nicely so you can still get in the door) and you can cope with single line running on it, then you might be able to get that gradient down to 1 in 40 ish.

 

I like the idea of hiding it appropriately inside the Tor though. In fact in that space you might be able to enclose the helix inside a "scenic cupboard" with a pair of doors (think kitchen cupboard style) on the left hand side and only opening it up if a train doesn't pass a signal box intact.

[TonyMay]

Here is another option.  It's not a roundy-roundy, but end-to-end, but designed for either one-person or two-person operation.  In one-person operation the operator works from the front and can send trains out and round the loop.  In two-person operation there's an additional operator who can change casettes in the loop.  It's designed like a stage, to face the audience, so looks good on entering the room, and all of the off-stage bits are hidden from view.  A new visitor is greeted by a model railway rather than a fiddle yard.

 

 

Sorry for the bad drawing, but you get the idea.  Base-boards in black, back-scene in green, track in red.

[RobinofLoxley]

It would be helpful to know for certain if the door access opens in or out; normally in the UK its inwards but this is a loft space; next if its full height, or let say above the likely height of the baseboards of 80cm that there is at least a further 50cm of clear wall. If the roof is any lower that starts to affect what might be installed.

Lastly, the narrow side of the chimney is the first thing to sort out. Personally I dont favour a cassette or traverser- its a 3' space, you need half that for access. A small station can be put into the remaining 15" instead. The station access roads run across the doorway via a lift-out or duck-under section, then turn left. Many options for the rest of the space.

[Steam Revival]

Good evening everyone,

 

Thank you for all of your inputs, you have already given me much to think about, with a couple of options I hadn't thought about...... a fresh pair of eyes has certainly been beneficial.

 

I will try to answer your questions in the rough order that they were asked:

 

17 hours ago, Schooner said:

Full height throughout?

& @DCB   Yes, the room is full height throughout

 

17 hours ago, Schooner said:

One which might be useful to know early on is how you feel about using a helix or two to gain your continuous run of circuit or dogbone?

to be honest, I hadn't thought about using a helix, but I am certainly not adverse 

 

7 hours ago, DCB said:

Does the door open in or out?

Currently, the door opens outwards.

 

I say currently because I am waiting for a visit from a building control officer about a different matter, but during my investigation and attempts to gleam more space, I have noted that some of the wall to the left of the door is studwork, whereas to the right it is brick.  There is no additional space to be had, but it might be possible to move the door over to the left by 3 or 4 feet, but I want to check with building control before I do anything silly!

 

7 hours ago, DCB said:

What minimum radius do you need hidden and visible, and what sort of train lengths

My newer locomotives state that the minimum radius is R2, however, I would prefer visible curves to be greater than this if possible, mainly for aesthetics

I am being realistic with train lengths and don't really envisage having a rake greater than 3 or 4 coaches.  

 

7 hours ago, DCB said:

How is your woodwork, can you do gradients and curved edges or do you need level rectangular table tops

A very important question!  Fortunately, and without meaning to blow my own trumpet, my carpentry skill are good, I tend to over engineer, but it certainly won't fall apart.  I would probably build the layout using an open frame.  I like the idea of incorporating gradients and possibly multi layers.

 

7 hours ago, DCB said:

I'm assuming walk in to main access spaces but can you crawl in to the minor ones

Access will not be a problem to the minor areas and I will remain flexible with regard to the entrance depending on the complexity of trackwork etc...

 

8 hours ago, DCB said:

Do you want a lot of scenic run  as per @Schooner 

My vision is more that this will be a diorama (or series of dioramas) with a railway in it rather than a mass of tracks with a scattering of scenery.  

 

 

My apologies, this reply is rather clumsy, but I hope that it answers peoples' questions. 

 

Once again, thank you for all of your suggestions.

 

All the best

Andy

[RobinofLoxley]

If you look at the space as it would be with baseboards put in, you can see better what kind of track schemes might be employed. Most people work to a limit of reach of 80-90max cm but if you used boards that deep all the way round the room there would be little central space left to move around in. To provide that space some boards need to be cut back to probably 60cm, see below.

Some people might be prepared to contemplate a further duck under somewhere in the middle, personally Im very happy I got rid of mine. You need a workbench in there somewhere, hence I moved the lift-out inside to create a couple of areas for that.

 

This now shows a zone around the chimney that would be a twisty route, and two long sides that would accommmodate up to a large through station with storage sidings, goods yard, turntable, etc. The bay area I would use as a terminus station - 4 roads would still be substantial.

 

If you are up to the carpentry involved in multi level there are more possibilities but the planning of gradients is quite tricky and you would need to be able to draw up a track plan, or even have someone here draw one up for you in Anyrail, Xtrakcad, etc.

[Schooner]

Does the space also need to house modelling bench and associated storage? A comfy, bright and generally pleasant (and permanent!) place for this is worth an awful lot I reckon, and that alcove to the left of the door looks perfect.

 

It may seem a waste not to dedicate every square foot to the layout, but it's not a real railway - remember it's meant to be a nice place and a fun way to spend your free time!

[Nearholmer]

I think I’d look to narrow gauge in this area, because it permits much tighter curves. In 009, you could have a real “empire”, but I think I’d go for a very ‘bottom rung’ railway, with small locos and four-wheeled stock, in 7mm scale, mainly because I find 4mm scale too small these days.

 

A very light railway/tramway in 4mm SG might also work ….. I’m thinking of that 3ft wide nook, and whether a curve could be got round it …… 15” radius works in 16.5mm gauge track, whatever scale the trains running in it are.

 

In 4mm, Wantage Tramway style.

 

in 7mm, Rye & Camber Tramway sort of thing, or a mineral tramway of some sort.

Don’t go N or TT, that’s simply invisible!

 

[Steam Revival]

Hi everyone,

 

well.... some good news and some not so good....... 

 

Building control have finally visited for their last stage inspection, the good news is that they can't find anything wrong with what the builders have done (despite trying for over 2 hours!!). The not so good news is that he doesn't think the door to my train room should be moved - but at least he hasn't condemned the space!

 

@RobinofLoxley your point re the width of baseboards is well noted and although I am fairly fit at the moment, I am also clumsy and the thought of wrecking scenery when over extending doesn't appeal. 

 

With regard to access, I have seen a variety of different construction methods used for lift up, lift out, and swing door entry systems (including isolating / interlocks to prevent locos going off campus if running when the access is open), all I believe within my skill set.

 

I like the idea of at least one twisty route on the layout as I believe that this will add interest and allow for some really interesting scenery.

 

@RobinofLoxley & @Schooner I also like the idea of a small workbench, but would probably go for something along the lines of a pull-out computer keyboard table beneath a convenient piece of baseboard.

 

I envisage doing most of my modelling in a small boxroom, there is enough space for my needs and it is somewhere I can shut up and leave as is between bouts of creativity (has already been approved by higher management!)

 

It is fast becoming apparent that I will need access to a PC to enable me to program my locos' decoders as well as using track planning software.

 

 

 

@Nearholmer thank you for your message, unfortunately, although very appealing, this isn't an option for me as I already have a collection of OO rolling stock and track.  I am afraid that neither finances or the Wife would allow the investment in another gauge.

 

 

Thanks again

Andy

 

[RobinofLoxley]

14 minutes ago, Steam Revival said:

Hi everyone,

 

well.... some good news and some not so good....... 

 

Building control have finally visited for their last stage inspection, the good news is that they can't find anything wrong with what the builders have done (despite trying for over 2 hours!!). The not so good news is that he doesn't think the door to my train room should be moved - but at least he hasn't condemned the space!

 

@RobinofLoxley your point re the width of baseboards is well noted and although I am fairly fit at the moment, I am also clumsy and the thought of wrecking scenery when over extending doesn't appeal. 

 

With regard to access, I have seen a variety of different construction methods used for lift up, lift out, and swing door entry systems (including isolating / interlocks to prevent locos going off campus if running when the access is open), all I believe within my skill set.

 

I like the idea of at least one twisty route on the layout as I believe that this will add interest and allow for some really interesting scenery.

 

@RobinofLoxley & @Schooner I also like the idea of a small workbench, but would probably go for something along the lines of a pull-out computer keyboard table beneath a convenient piece of baseboard.

 

I envisage doing most of my modelling in a small boxroom, there is enough space for my needs and it is somewhere I can shut up and leave as is between bouts of creativity (has already been approved by higher management!)

 

It is fast becoming apparent that I will need access to a PC to enable me to program my locos' decoders as well as using track planning software.

 

 

 

@Nearholmer thank you for your message, unfortunately, although very appealing, this isn't an option for me as I already have a collection of OO rolling stock and track.  I am afraid that neither finances or the Wife would allow the investment in another gauge.

 

 

Thanks again

Andy

 

You dont need a PC for programming decoders depending on your selection of DCC command station, you do it through that. However, I have a z21 and the alternative  method of access using the maintenance app on a PC is very useful (normally I address it via a mobile phone at this point in time).

[Schooner]

28 minutes ago, Steam Revival said:

The not so good news is that he doesn't think the door to my train room should be moved

Any particular reason, or just good old I don't like change; won't sign change?

 

As long as you've thought about a work space, then that's all good (and sounds like a great solution - I dread to think what you must do to be so accomodating for your wife in return!).

 

The more I hear of your skillset the more feasible some schemes become. Not sure if they'd suit your desires, but I think my next proposal would be two quite sparse levels rather than one busier one:

• Main line continuous run (roundy or dogbone variation) with simple through station at the upper level - say baseboards about tit-height so you're looking at the scene as if from a rooftop. High, but simply worked on from a platform, and the viewing angle makes light work (comparatively) of a lot of the scenics. For watching trains go by.
• Beneath that a more 'operations' focused level - a developed 'rural station', perhaps inspired by an end-junction station like Yeovil Town  complete with gasworks, each fully fleshed out and plenty of room to breathe - at a more traditional waist height. For playing trains.
• If you go with a helix or two to link them (rather than, say, cassettes), then you might as well pop in a low-level storage yard too. Massive increase in functionallity but not in workloard.

But the above does not mesh with

On 12/07/2023 at 19:22, Steam Revival said:

My vision is more that this will be a diorama (or series of dioramas) with a railway in it

IIUC.

 

I normally understand dioramas in this context as a series of discrete individually framed (not just scenically, but boxed) scenes. To convince, each scene tends to be smaller than one's field of vision (say <6') but should be longer than a train (say >4'), and deep as convient (typically a small-space solution, 2' seems about average). A really good way of fitting an entire network into a room, the basis of some cracking layouts, it takes well to the use of multi-levels, and tbh your space would work particularly well for it, fitting about 5 good scenes per level...

 

...but have I understood your mean correctly?

[Harlequin]

I take the dioramas comment to mean "composed views" within the span of the layout rather than physically separate scenes.

(Have a look at Little Muddle, Chuffnell Regis and Stoke Courtenay for inspiration, if you haven't already.)

 

If that's the kind of thing you are aiming for then my advice is to keep the railway parts simple and achievable otherwise you will spend years on the technical stuff before you ever get any scenic satisfaction. Simple railways can be interesting to operate.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Harlequin

[Steam Revival]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

Any particular reason, or just good old I don't like change; won't sign change?

You got it in one! I felt it better to bow down on this one, rather than him snag the building works!

 

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

I dread to think what you must do to be so accomodating for your wife in return!

New Kitchen 🤣

 

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

I think my next proposal would be two quite sparse levels rather than one busier one

Intrigued!!

 

I have been researching Helix and have to say that the idea of having an 'off scene' storage area is really interesting.  I also like the idea of having a technically challenging project with something that I can develop.

 

The multi level approach is fascinating and something I hadn't considered before.

 

@Schooner & @Harlequin  I think my description of 'diorama (or series of dioramas) with a railway in it' was clumsy and apologise, scenes would be more accurate description of the look that I am going for.

 

@Harlequin thank you for those links, I have seen Little Muddle & Chuffnell Regis before, but not Stoke Courtenay.  

 

 

Right back to today's project to keep my wife happy.... installing an engineered wooden floor downstairs, it is murder on the knees, but looks superb and the offcuts might come in very handy 😉

 

Cheers

Andy 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

Dioramas are normally posed scenes, so no motion in them. These can involve model railway scenes but normally not with a traversing train. A scene such as a framed section of track with trains passing through wouldn't be considered a Diorama.

[Schooner]

One word + four people = four+ meanings 🤣 The tribulations and triumphs of RMWeb in a nutshell. Anyway, as long as @Steam Revival knows what he means!

[RobinofLoxley]

16 minutes ago, Schooner said:

One word + four people = four+ meanings 🤣 The tribulations and triumphs of RMWeb in a nutshell. Anyway, as long as @Steam Revival knows what he means!

I knew what he meant but there is a real definition of Diorama 

[Mopoke]

Hi Andy,

 

A bit of outside the box suggestion; since you're open to hidden set track radii and split levels I feel this old plan from Model Railroader has some of the "vibe" of what it sounds like you have in mind:

 https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Boston-Maine-Boston-Albany.pdf      

 Sure you will need to Anglicise it and put a 90 degree bend in it - a sweeping one to make an impressive vista greeting you as you walk into the room; imagine trains running by at near eye height on the scenic upper level while you have a good overview for shunting the station on the lower. It will also leave the nook left of the door free for a small workbench, reference library or stock display.

 

Cheers,

Glenn