VSOE to axe UK section

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

The French establishment is hell bent on doing everything it can to undermine the UK, London and the City as a financial centre, no matter how petty, due to Brexit.

 

Meanwhile the Swiss are working on trade deals with the UK and looking to put direct rail services between the major Swiss cities and London in place. Might end up being a sleeper service and this is being talked about for Basel. Geneva to London via Paris is about 6.5 hours currently or 9 hours via Brussels. Basel and Zurich are 6-9 hour timings with multiple changes at present. The Swiss are keen to link up to all major European economic centres including London.

 

https://www.iamexpat.ch/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/sbb-planning-new-direct-train-switzerland-london

 

Will have to be fast and reasonably cheap as the flights from Geneva to London City are very effective, easy to get there and back and have most of a full day.

I was working with DB, SNCB, and SBB on fully integrated connections between London, Brussel, Kôln, and Basle back in teh seconf d half of the 1990s and even then the idea wasn't new as PBKA (later named Thalys) included some similar ideas although not with much linking to Switzerland.

 

Like all these thng I'll believe it when I see it.  And I've done Lucerne-Geneva, or Berne, to London on several occasions in the past and muy son regularly used the train back from Geneva back in the days when he worked for a Swiss company and had to visit HQ,  But shorter journey times would be nice  however they'll never compete with times by air for that distance.

[adb968008]

What does surprise me is the volumes of people whom have no issue with long distance and overnight trains.

 

Indeed in Eastern Europe its still the norm to have international trains of 12-16 hour journeys, overnight services and trains running at ungodly hours.

 

take this one for instance IC105 Przesyml, Poland to Graz, Austria, via Ostrava Czech Republic.

https://rozklad-pkp.pl/en/ti?trainlink=831843/790328/316136/119213/55&ld=mobil&seqnr=3&ident=e8.08623535.1690547651&date=28.07.23&station_evaId=5100234&station_type=dep&journeyStartIdx=0&journeyEndIdx=11&backLink=tp&

 

Theres many such instances daily running all over Eastern Europe, and people thing nothing of getting up at 3am and going on a 12 hour journey, when the plane fare may be similar and much shorter. Ive done London all the way to Moscow, via Ukraine by train and its interesting watching the personas of passengers change during the route.

 

Long distance from London for non business is viable.. South of France for example was popular.. ive done this myself several times.

But for business, ive done Frankfurt from London which is about the limit to justify, even Amsterdam to London was stretching my business colleagues a little.

 

Certain long distance sleepers from London I think could work.

The problem with all of it is lack of political will, and finance.

Edited July 28, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

16 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Firstly I believe the safety regulations pertaining to the Channel Tunnel are hardwired into acts of Parliament so you would need a bill to be passed by the House of Commons to change them. 

 

As regards the BR steam ban (whatever the supposed justification) was just something BR created off their own back and had no legislative force behind it so it could be tweaked / rescinded whenever BR felt like it.

 

Also given we now have practical expectancy of 3 fires occurring within the tunnel since it opens, hell will freeze over before the regulators permit passenger carrying rolling stock which does not have advanced fire / smoke protection and can keep people safe while they evacuate into the service tunnel.

So we await the massive lithium battery fire of dozens of burning cars in the tunnel before safety is reconsidered ?

 

I suppose followed by a multi-mn £ enquiry taking a decade and making some professionals high revenue earning watermarks of their careers in the process to make those changes ?

 

 

[Nick C]

51 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

What does surprise me is the volumes of people whom have no issue with long distance and overnight trains.

 

Indeed in Eastern Europe its still the norm to have international trains of 12-16 hour journeys, overnight services and trains running at ungodly hours.

 

take this one for instance IC105 Przesyml, Poland to Graz, Austria, via Ostrava Czech Republic.

https://rozklad-pkp.pl/en/ti?trainlink=831843/790328/316136/119213/55&ld=mobil&seqnr=3&ident=e8.08623535.1690547651&date=28.07.23&station_evaId=5100234&station_type=dep&journeyStartIdx=0&journeyEndIdx=11&backLink=tp&

 

Theres many such instances daily running all over Eastern Europe, and people thing nothing of getting up at 3am and going on a 12 hour journey, when the plane fare may be similar and much shorter. Ive done London all the way to Moscow, via Ukraine by train and its interesting watching the personas of passengers change during the route.

 

Long distance from London for non business is viable.. South of France for example was popular.. ive done this myself several times.

But for business, ive done Frankfurt from London which is about the limit to justify, even Amsterdam to London was stretching my business colleagues a little.

 

Certain long distance sleepers from London I think could work.

The problem with all of it is lack of political will, and finance.

IC105 is a very good example - as apparently it currently includes a Swiss panoramic observation car in it's consist...

 

I've done London - Poland twice by train now, and it's much more fun than flying - but yes, it does take a lot longer! Saying that, using night trains can be quite time efficient if you are able to sleep on them - I find it hard though. As an example, you could use either of the two I mentioned in my last post to leave London on a mid-afternoon Eurostar and get to Vienna or Berlin for breakfast.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

What does surprise me is the volumes of people whom have no issue with long distance and overnight trains.

 

Indeed in Eastern Europe its still the norm to have international trains of 12-16 hour journeys, overnight services and trains running at ungodly hours.

 

take this one for instance IC105 Przesyml, Poland to Graz, Austria, via Ostrava Czech Republic.

https://rozklad-pkp.pl/en/ti?trainlink=831843/790328/316136/119213/55&ld=mobil&seqnr=3&ident=e8.08623535.1690547651&date=28.07.23&station_evaId=5100234&station_type=dep&journeyStartIdx=0&journeyEndIdx=11&backLink=tp&

 

Theres many such instances daily running all over Eastern Europe, and people thing nothing of getting up at 3am and going on a 12 hour journey, when the plane fare may be similar and much shorter. Ive done London all the way to Moscow, via Ukraine by train and its interesting watching the personas of passengers change during the route.

 

Long distance from London for non business is viable.. South of France for example was popular.. ive done this myself several times.

But for business, ive done Frankfurt from London which is about the limit to justify, even Amsterdam to London was stretching my business colleagues a little.

 

Certain long distance sleepers from London I think could work.

The problem with all of it is lack of political will, and finance.

Frankfurt was considered in theh end to be the only likely viable route for the ENS services and would have been the inaugural service.  But the whole project was cancelled  by LCR after they had taken over.  For them there was no political imperative to run sleeper trains on journeys in excess of 12 hours and commercially many the trains made only limited sense.  A shame however that Frankfurt never happened or a cheapo train to Amsterdam but cut-r price air fares had really killed that one before it could start although NS were still very keen on the idea.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[adb968008]

I suspect the dutch interest is for a faster option to replace the ferry to Amsterdam for the budget/stag do / young weekender crowd.

Also if it takes them off KLM flights O& D to Amsterdam, it opens up potential for greater revenue carrying UK passengers on longer haul journeys connecting via Amsterdam.

 

 

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

So we await the massive lithium battery fire of dozens of burning cars in the tunnel before safety is reconsidered ?

 

I suppose followed by a multi-mn £ enquiry taking a decade and making some professionals high revenue earning watermarks of their careers in the process to make those changes ?

 

 

In a nutshell - yes.

 

Don’t forget the origional CT fire response plan was to drive the on-fire train out of the tunnel…

 

A plan which kinda ignored the possibility of the on train electronics / cabling being burnt through causing the driver to stop the burning train induce the tunnel as they thought it had become derailed.

 

Needless to say the fire plan was revised after that and has been modified each time another fire occurred.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

In a nutshell - yes.

 

Don’t forget the origional CT fire response plan was to drive the on-fire train out of the tunnel…

 

A plan which kinda ignored the possibility of the on train electronics / cabling being burnt through causing the driver to stop the burning train induce the tunnel as they thought it had become derailed.

 

Needless to say the fire plan was revised after that and has been modified each time another fire occurred.

Yes - but don't forget the plan has to take account of trains which were not involved in a fire.  Clearly a train which is on fire can't necessarily, or safely, be moved.  But any train which is the same Tunnel interval as the location of the fire is best dealt with by getting it our pdq - provided the traction current has not dropped out.   As the Tunnel Intervals are 16 or 17 KMs long it's inevitable that for much of the time there will be more than one train in each Tunnel Interval - hence the need for a train to be able to get out of an interval in the opposite direction to that in which it entered the Interval

 

So all trains in the Tunnel were required to be capable of being driven, and powered, from either end and when necessary able to be split to get a usable part away from a part which was on fire or damaged etc.

[jjb1970]

I think a lot depends on whether the rail journey is part of the experience or just a means of getting from A - B. I travelled across China using overnight trains in the 1990's and it was a great experience, but if it was just about getting somewhere then a 16 hour train journey isn't attractive if you can fly in two hours. The key thing for overnight trains for me is arriving in time for the start of business, do that and a sleeper train can be very attractive and potentially gain time at home. I always wanted to use the sleeper to Aberdeen as I could have effectively had the evening at home with my family in Milton Keynes then gone down to Euston quite late, but the fares were always silly and my employer did it more cheaply flying me up and putting me in a good hotel.

[MarkC]

On 28/07/2023 at 11:45, 6990WitherslackHall said:

I know. It would interesting to see how they would do it.

Have the line closed off as a possession - as was done on the ECML a few years ago with 4 trains running in parallel...

 

Mark

[Wickham Green too]

On 28/07/2023 at 13:33, adb968008 said:

... trains of 12-16 hour journeys, overnight services and trains running at ungodly hours. ...

Ever done Delhi to New Jalpaiguri ??!?

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Ever done Delhi to New Jalpaiguri ??!?

Indian railways is the big gap in my travels.

Considering the volume of IT in India, I dont know why its never happened for me.

Edited July 29, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

So all trains in the Tunnel were required to be capable of being driven, and powered, from either end and when necessary able to be split to get a usable part away from a part which was on fire or damaged etc.

How does that work if the cables are burnt ?

surely if the power has gone nothings going to move ?

Edited July 29, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

15 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

How does that work if the cables are burnt ?

surely if the power has gone nothings going to move ?

That's the problem that wasn't anticipated/fully thought through in the original planning.   And of course it's exactly what happened with the first fire - the overhead melted in the heat.  However going back the way you've come is still a feasible course of action if a train in front has failed.

 

(Although perhaps rather crucially a lorry load of camembert which was on the train ahd the apearance of havingf been very nicely done by the heat - it was some way from the heart of the fire.  But I doubt anybody tested it because there was an awful lot of soot from the smoke on the outer packaging) 

[adb968008]

Just now, The Stationmaster said:

That's the problem that wasn't anticipated/fully thought through in the original planning.   And of course it's exactly what happened with the first fire - the overhead melted in the heat.  However going back the way you've come is still a feasible course of action if a train in front has failed.

 

(Although perhaps rather crucially a lorry load of camembert which was on the train ahd the apearance of havingf been very nicely done by the heat - it was some way from the heart of the fire.  But I doubt anybody tested it because there was an awful lot of soot from the smoke on the outer packaging) 

I bet that smell still lingers today ?

[009 micro modeller]

On 29/07/2023 at 00:48, phil-b259 said:

Don’t forget the origional CT fire response plan was to drive the on-fire train out of the tunnel…

Out of interest, what is actually the Channel Tunnel procedure to evacuate an immovable train in the event of a fire? On smaller tunnel railways with more access points it would involve walking to a safe exit but surely that isn’t the case here, given the distances involved? Do they use the road in the service tunnels in some way?

[StuAllen]

54 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Do they use the road in the service tunnels in some way

Exactly that - the individual tunnels are linked every 375m - https://www.getlinkgroup.com/en/our-group/eurotunnel/channel-tunnel/

 

Think there was a section on one of the Architecture the Railways Built episodes where they went into the service tunnel and showed it

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Out of interest, what is actually the Channel Tunnel procedure to evacuate an immovable train in the event of a fire? On smaller tunnel railways with more access points it would involve walking to a safe exit but surely that isn’t the case here, given the distances involved? Do they use the road in the service tunnels in some way?

Evacuate into the service yunnel and from there into something provided by 'Eurotunnel' to get the people out at one end or  other of the t Tunnel..  The service tunnel doors are matched by the distance between certain doors in a Class 373 Eurosra tar should they could be evacuated quite rapidly.

 

I took the wife and offspring along for the evacuation exercise that the  Safety Authority required before allowing the Tunnel to reopen after the first fire.  We had to walk the best part of 1km in the service tunnel - not exactly a scenic treat and visually bring to be honest - before getting into a car and coach Shuttle in the other running tunnel where we all sat on the floor for the trip back to Folkestone (yes the floor was very clean, fortunately).  Then eventually rejoin the Eurostar for trip back to Waterloo with a never ending procession of children visiting the driving cab.   Good family day out with nothing to pay for except any refreshments we took along. and great fun for the offspring.

 

More importantlly the test was considered more than satisfactory by the Safety Authority so Eurostar was back in business.   And some  years later I was able to say on the ship were aboard that we'd 'walked under here' as we passed over the area on the surface of the Channel.

[Fat Controller]

On 29/07/2023 at 18:56, adb968008 said:

I bet that smell still lingers today ?

I didn't know about the Camembert; however, closer to the seat of the fire were some pineapples and a load of processed cheese slices. These latter seemed unaffected by the fire, leading to suggestions that they could be used to patch up the spalled concrete.

 

[Foulounoux]

On 26/07/2023 at 21:24, Foulounoux said:

The original resurrection of the VSOE used the Seacat

 

 

They used the Seacat because they owned both, Sea Containers being part of James Sherwood empire along with the Pullman cars 

 

In 2006 we went on the train to Innsbruck and thence to Vienna

 

The crossing in June was awful as a force 7/8 and a catamaran don't make best buddies. 2hr delay and 1hr 15 crossing zig zag across the channel for safety reasons 

 

I wrote to them explaining that experience of the VSOE was supposed to be more than that and whilst I understood the wish to make best use of the assets it wasn't the experience people paid for.  Rich food on the VSOE doesn't go well after such a crossing 🤢

 

 

Amazingly we had a reply from the general manager admitting that they should have looked at alternatives and in September 2006 we had a free trip to Paris in order to trial the first use by them of Eurotunnel

 

It didn't match the atmosphere of the original crossing but was much better for the stomach 

 

Bit of a moment there we've been married 27 years so it wasn't 2006 but 1996

I do remember our anniversary honest