DCC Way Forward

[NFWEM57]

I rekindled my interest in model railway during lockdown, having had a gap of 50 years...!  Although I purchase a bit of 1970s and 1980s Hornby stock to upgrade i was impressed by the level of detail and mechanical improvements of more modern offering; and shocked by the price.  Trying to improve 40 year old models to match modern standards was going to be a waste of time in most cases and more expensive than buying later offerings, stand fast some Lima models, so I gradually morphed to acquiring more recent models.  On the choice between DC and DCC it was obvious, given my engineering background, DCC would be the obvious choice and I duly purchased an ESU ECoS and use, predominantly, ESU decoders.  Sound is not the be all and end all for me although I generally have at least one of each (Diesel /DMU) class sound fitted.

 

Roll forward a few years and the landscape is changing.  No longer do we have to play with CVs as the human machine interface takes care of all that.  But now we have a variety of offerings and I am wondering if my ECoS is redundant given the offerings from Lodi and  YaMoRC with very much simplified firmware updates.  So, having (partially) invested in servo turnout and servo signal solutions for my planned layout, I am now considering fully committing to  MPB turnout motors and maybe even using coloured lights instead of semaphore signals.  But the problem is, which system..!!?

 

I have looked at the turnout solution from an overall cost basis and the cost is in the region of £45-£50 per point regardless of solution from MERG to MP1 with ESU controllers and similar.  But the advantages of the latest systems far outweigh the cost differential.  So, I am on the cusp of moving to Lodi or  YaMoRC with MP1s and similar and selling off my old DCC hardware.  However, ESU will likely remain the decoder of choice for my bespoke locomotive lighting arrangements with additional bespoke electronic.

 

Has anybody else found themselves taking a step back an looking at the bigger picture?

 

Patrick

Edited August 5, 2023 by NFWEM57
typo s and clarity

[WIMorrison]

I originally had a Lenz DCC system and it was good, rock solid but very much a closed system with little ability to using computerised control systems. I looked around and found the Roco Z21 which have me access to multiple communication busses, but importantly Loconet which enabled the use of cheap(er) items that communicated via Loconet. This was further enhanced by the very affordable Digikeijs products - as an aside I was asked to try the DR5000 which I did for about 3 months and then it was sold off, definitely a case of you get what you pay for, but the other Digikeijs components were very good, although now somewhat dated in architecture and functionality. The YAMORC products are what Digikeijs could have become had Roy Keijs wanted to develop and enhance the product line up, as opposed to just milking it.

 

I still look at the marketplace and were I scrapping the Z21 (unlikely) I would be heading towards Lodi, not a cheap system (but affordable) and very well specified providing robust control designed with the intention of computerised control, in a comprehensive product line-up.

 

The one thing I would say is that to get a decent DCC system you need to look at Europe, the market is being driven by them (predominately Netherland and Germany), and they leave US designed systems out in the cold from a heritage that hasn't been updated since originally conceived 30 years ago. 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The one thing I would say is that to get a decent DCC system you need to look at Europe, the market is being driven by them (predominately Netherland and Germany), and they leave US designed systems out in the cold from a heritage that hasn't been updated since originally conceived 30 years ago. 

 

I would agree, though there is an exception: TCS are producing some interesting throttles and command stations.    

[Vecchio]

Another voice for Z21, extremely easy to handle. Semaphore signals: If you change your point motors to servos - servos are exactly what you want for semaphore signals. Even with bouncing effect. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

14 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

...I have looked at the turnout solution from an overall cost basis and the cost is in the region of £45-£50 per point...

Interesting you mention this; in my opinion it's the track system that is the large technology hole for DCC development.  I would like to purchase a high grade flexi track system with every point motored and decoder fitted, and flexi track lengths available both dumb, (majority) or sectioned and decoder fitted, with an integrated DCC system that builds the layout mapping as construction proceeds, delivering the occupancy detection and routing automation for compatible software.

[jamesed]

Another Z21 fan here but my suggestion is that you consider Cobalt IP Digital point motors which only work out at about £21 per set of points and include extra benefits such as relay outputs (that can drive your coloured light signals) as well as live frog powering. An all in one solution that doesn't need separate accessory decoders or CDUs.  With a Z21 easy to control through the track layout schematic mimic screen on a tablet, including setting up routes. 

[WIMorrison]

 

I am not sure how you get the £45-50 per turnout (unless you are inlcuding the cost of the actual turnout) because the costs to operate are;

 

MTB MP1 = £18.50

YD8116 £62.50 for 8 motors = £8.00 per turnout

Total = £26.50 per turnout

 

DCC Cobalt Digital IP = £29.95

 

Personally having been a Cobalt IP Digital fan with 25 of them until MP1 motors became available I know which way I now lean as I now have 37 MP1 motors - perhaps that says something about me, perhaps it says something about the size of the IP Digital, or perhaps it says I finally got fed up with the reliability of them and constantly losing addresses 😉

 

[NFWEM57]

I 

6 hours ago, jamesed said:

my suggestion is that you consider Cobalt IP Digital point motors which only work out at about £21 per set of points

Hi, Apologies, I should have been clearer. The turnout price of £45~£50 includes the turnout..!   In my case they would be, for the most part, EMGS B6s and British Finescale EM gauges points with a few bespoke built.  The cost per point is made up of, for example:

• Cost per channel of DCC control, so 1/8th of a Dijikejis DR4018  (£5) or ESU Switch Pilot Servo 3 (£6.25)
• Cost of an MP1 (£18) or Dingo MiniPoint with Switch and Servo (£9.50)
• The turnout itself (£27)

I have looked at Cobalt Digital but its runs off the track power and I could see no way of providing separate power and control so i discounted that as a solution.  All my other solutions have separate power provisions.

 

Patrick

[NFWEM57]

5 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

I now have 37 MP1 motors

Building up my stock too..!  Did have other solutions in mind but too bulky.

Edited August 5, 2023 by NFWEM57

[NFWEM57]

16 hours ago, Vecchio said:

Even with bouncing effect. 

ESU Switch Pilot 3 has that built in too.  So, servo my solution for semaphores.

 

11 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Interesting you mention this; in my opinion it's the track system that is the large technology hole for DCC development

Sounds like the Internet of Track and a brilliant idea..!  So, we would need an NMRA like standard for that..!

[melmerby]

On 04/08/2023 at 21:17, WIMorrison said:

I originally had a Lenz DCC system and it was good, rock solid but very much a closed system with little ability to using computerised control systems.

 

My Lenz worked fine with TrainController.

Are you sure you mean Lenz? Much of the system is well documented for third party developers e.g. Expressnet which is used by several other manufacturers & the RS bus for feedback which again others have implemented.

Edited August 5, 2023 by melmerby

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Last time I looked Miniature Wonderland in Hamburg ran its little automated train set on Lenz, which suggests that there is no inherent problem using this system with computerised control systems.

9 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

Sounds like the Internet of Track and a brilliant idea..!  So, we would need an NMRA like standard for that..!

First thing required is a track supplier prepared to design the thing and ideally release the spec as an open standard.

[jamesed]

On 05/08/2023 at 18:01, WIMorrison said:

 

DCC Cobalt Digital IP = £29.95

 

Only if you buy them singularly and at the full list price.  Shop around for discounted prices and buy multipacks then it is much cheaper. Last week I bought a box of 12 for £249.96 which works out at £20.79 each.  

Edited August 7, 2023 by jamesed

[jamesed]

9 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

 

I have looked at Cobalt Digital but its runs off the track power and I could see no way of providing separate power and control so i discounted that as a solution.  All my other solutions have separate power provisions.

 

You can run them, as many do, from a separate dcc accessory bus if you prefer. You can then still use the relay outputs to provide the switching live frog feed. However the current draw is only 40mA when running and 5mA when dormant so they don't really cause any great draw upon your dcc power. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Last time I looked Miniature Wonderland in Hamburg ran its little automated train set on Lenz, which suggests that there is no inherent problem using this system with computerised control systems.

And they use Train Controller and LDT modules.

Edited August 6, 2023 by melmerby

[WIMorrison]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

 

...Are you sure you mean Lenz? ...

 

Yes, I did mean Lenz, that is why I wrote Lenz.

 

When I was looking there were 2 sources of feedbacks, Lenz or LDT, There was only a USB interface and the additional componentry required to automate a layout. At that time the range of Loconet devices was significantly greater than anything for the RS Bus, or XpressNet, and I think that is probably still an accurate statement.

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by WIMorrison

[DCCconcepts]

On 05/08/2023 at 18:01, WIMorrison said:

 

, perhaps it says something about the size of the IP Digital, or perhaps it says I finally got fed up with the reliability of them and constantly losing addresses 😉

 

 

The issue of losing addresses (in a batch produced in late 2018) has been well documented and we have had no similar issues since 2019.

 

Best Regards,

The DCCconcepts Team

[melmerby]

On 06/08/2023 at 11:32, WIMorrison said:

 

Yes, I did mean Lenz, that is why I wrote Lenz.

 

When I was looking there were 2 sources of feedbacks, Lenz or LDT, There was only a USB interface and the additional componentry required to automate a layout. At that time the range of Loconet devices was significantly greater than anything for the RS Bus, or XpressNet, and I think that is probably still an accurate statement.

 

Just because there were more Loconet devices doesn't mean they were anyway better to control a layout.

Lenz (+ third parties) had everything to build a large computer controlled layout.

What extra did Loconet bring?

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Keith, I am glad that you are happy with your choices.

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Keith, I am glad that you are happy with your choices.

TBH I'm still not 100% satisfied.

 

My Journey

Lenz USB (RS bus) > Lenz LAN (RS Bus) > DR5000 USB or LAN (RS Bus) > Lenz LAN (RS Bus) & Z21 LAN (just drive) > Z21 LAN (drive + Loconet)

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by melmerby

[NFWEM57]

Thank you for all the feedback and advice.  I have a little time to watch the latest systems (Lodi & YaMoRC) develop before I commit and I will be using iTrain for automation.   Who knows, perhaps ESU and others will react to the latest developments.  The Lodi 16SD & MP1 option is slightly cheaper than the YaMoRC & MP1 option but Lodi is pretty expensive for servo control and no sign of current sensors yet, critical for automation.  But although YaMoRC have current sensors they have yet to release a servo controller.   As always, one size does not fit all.  But my (growing) key user requirements are:

• Separate Supply for control modules using DCC for control only.
• Inexpensive (per unit) turnout, semaphore and light signalling solutions with easy set up.  The Yodi did impress on the simplicity of turnout and switching setup; no CVs to fiddle with.
• Current feedback solution for block detection.
• Booster regions within a booster
• Compatible with iTrain
• Feedback from locomotives and some accessories

Patrick

[rockmonkey]

For inexpensive turnout/semaphore servo control and light signalling solutions have a look at https://www.arcomora.com

 

DCCNext kits (pcb+components) cost €9,95 which has 16 controllable outputs so cost per turnout is very low (if I remember correctly max 12 can be for servos- need to check)

 

There are two different bits of software available that load onto the DDCNext kits.  MARDEC is a multifunctional DCC decoder for servo’s and accessory’s. ARSIGDEC is a DCC signal decoder for light signals.

 

I have used both and can recommend. Note that the configuration is a command prompt style which some may consider a drawback. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, rockmonkey said:

For inexpensive turnout/semaphore servo control and light signalling solutions have a look at https://www.arcomora.com

 

DCCNext kits (pcb+components) cost €9,95 which has 16 controllable outputs so cost per turnout is very low (if I remember correctly max 12 can be for servos- need to check)

 

There are two different bits of software available that load onto the DDCNext kits.  MARDEC is a multifunctional DCC decoder for servo’s and accessory’s. ARSIGDEC is a DCC signal decoder for light signals.

 

I have used both and can recommend. Note that the configuration is a command prompt style which some may consider a drawback. 

Another alternative, if you are in to electronics is an Arduino. (clone)

I have built colour light and point motor drivers (both servo & DC motor)

[NFWEM57]

Hi, 

 

Thank you for the alternative solutions suggested above.  I am a member of MERG so have looked at Arduino and other solutions.  To me, the MP1 and MP5  turnout motors really fit the bill.  The issue remaining is with what do i drive them and, for me, the jury is still out.  I may yet use an ESU product but the latest developments with their ease of setting up is really good news.  Minimum wiring, minimum setup, brilliant.  I'll still use servos for the semaphores or i may go hybrid and have lights on the mainline and semaphores on the branch lines of my layout.

 

Patrick

[melmerby]

46 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

To me, the MP1 and MP5  turnout motors really fit the bill.  The issue remaining is with what do i drive them

Yamorc :https://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/yamorc-yd8116-16-fold-switching-decoder.html

(Sadly none around yet) The Digikeijs DR4018 did the same job.

 

Arduino with some form of  output drivers.  I used high power Mosfets but I'm about to make one using ULN2803 Darlingtons as the MP-1 only needs about 150mA and the ULN2803 is rated 500mA

 

Any other point driver that can supply 12/15v (AC or DC) at 150mA