Inter company carriages

[Penrhos1920]

At the turn of the century what was the maximum length and width of a carriage that could run from one company to another?  In the last few years of the 19th century carriages grew rapidly in size.  In 1908 the GWR ordered two lots of carriages that were almost identical except that the first lot was 56’ and the second was 57’ long.  As far as I’m aware no one has discovered why.  It has occurred to me that some companies might not permit the longer carriages.  Even as late as 1936 60’ carriages were not permitted over a good few lines.

[kevinlms]

I doubt whether companies specifically banned certain vehicles totally. They would have banned them from particular locations that were in some way tight.

If and whenever modifications were done to ease the restrictions, then those vehicles would be allowed.

 

Many places were never modified and restrictions remained in place and even special rolling stock used. An example was the narrow tunnels on the SER Hasting line.

[Tom Burnham]

SER stock was generally built to Hastings line loading gauge. There were more stringent restrictions on the Canterbury and Whitstable line with Tyler Hill tunnel and special stock was allocated for that service.

In terms of the GWR carriages, I wonder if the shorter ones might have been intended for the through workings East of Paddington over the Metropolitan Widened Lines?  Length restrictions persisted there until electrification and Thameslinkisation.

[Tom Burnham]

I've just had a quick look at T B Peacock's "Great Western London Suburban Services" which doesn't mention 56-foot carriages.  It does say "New rolling-stock for the City service was introduced on 12th December 1921.  It comprised six sets of six steel-pannelled bogie coaches each 48 feet long, with fire-proof doors.  Each train seated 100 First and 320 Third Class passengers.  The new coaches embodied the latest in electric lighting."

It also mentions that the GWR provided the stock for the Middle Circle service (Faringdon to Mansion House via theHammersmith & City and Kensington Addison Road), but doesn't give details.

[ChrisN]

I know that in the late 19th century the GWR asked what was the Cambrian's loading gauge and if they could send a certain coach through a certain tunnel.

 

At the Board meeting those who should have known did not, so they took the coach, or something very similar, through the tunnel very slowly to see if it got stuck.

 

I would think that it varied with company.

 

Have you got the 'Through Carriage Workings' from the Kew Archive for the period?  The ones I have seen only specified the type of coaches, as far as I remember, and not a particular coach or length.

[ChrisN]

Just to prove myself wrong I checked the 1913 'Through Carriage Workings'.  That specifies '70ft' and '57ft' for some coaches.  The '70' was mostly on the prodigious expresses, or were a few in a train to increase the capacity.  There were a couple of '70' through coaches, one to Weymouth and one to Aberystwyth.  The '57' were mainly slip coaches, (some '70' slip coaches were also specified), but one was specified as it was going to Minehead.

 

Was there a big capacity difference between 57 ft and 56ft?  Would the guard have been sacked if he could only get a 56 instead of a 57?

 

There was a '57' bound for Edinburgh and the owning company was given as 'Cal'.

[Compound2632]

There were certainly loading gauge limits. The one I am most familiar with is the Met Widened Lines for which the Midland built reduced height CCTs and later clerestories. There had been an accident early on with an over-height NER CCT being returned from the LCDR.

[Caley Jim]

3 hours ago, ChrisN said:

There was a '57' bound for Edinburgh and the owning company was given as 'Cal'.

Pre WWI there was a through coach attached to the up 'Corridor',  CR and GWR each providing a carriage, vehicles running on alternate days.  The CR carriage was lettered 'Glasgow and Bristol via Severn Tunnel' on the eaves panels.  I wasn't aware that there was also one to Edinburgh.

 

Jim

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Caley Jim said:

Pre WWI there was a through coach attached to the up 'Corridor',  CR and GWR each providing a carriage, vehicles running on alternate days.  The CR carriage was lettered 'Glasgow and Bristol via Severn Tunnel' on the eaves panels.  I wasn't aware that there was also one to Edinburgh.

 

Jim

 

Jim,

July 12 to Sept 13th inc. 1913

 

On the 12?pm Mail train from Penzance to Crewe there was a 57ft Brake Compo, corridor coach, with brake end leading.  It was going from Exeter to Edinburgh, and returning by the 6pm from Edinburgh.

 

It, or perhaps another one, was then attached to the 1:25 am from Crewe to Penzance to return to Exeter.  It then returned by the 5:43pm from Exeter to Edinburgh.

 

There were two 'WCJ' Brake Compos on the 3:55 pm Crewe to Bristol, one from Glasgow, one from Edinburgh.  They returned by the 9:10pm Bristol to Taunton, and then on the 7:5 am from Taunton to Crewe.  These returned on the 10:05am from Edinburgh, and the 10:00pm from Glasgow.

 

That seems as clear as mud to me without sitting down and spending ages working out the coach diagram.

 

[Penrhos1920]

14 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

It also mentions that the GWR provided the stock for the Middle Circle service (Faringdon to Mansion House via theHammersmith & City and Kensington Addison Road), but doesn't give details.

 

I’ve written a bit about those coaches on my GWR coaches website under Dean Coaches > London Metropolitan Designs.

 

9 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I know that in the late 19th century the GWR asked what was the Cambrian's loading gauge and if they could send a certain coach through a certain tunnel.

 

At the Board meeting those who should have known did not, so they took the coach, or something very similar, through the tunnel very slowly to see if it got stuck.

 

In the 1927 Alterations & Additions to the GA there’s this note

  “coaching stock running between Dovey Junction & Aberdovey must not exceed 60’ in length and 9’ in width “, which effectively ruled out most of Churchward and Collett coaches as those are maximum coach dimensions over handles and buffers.

 

8 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Was there a big capacity difference between 57 ft and 56ft?  Would the guard have been sacked if he could only get a 56 instead of a 57?

 

For the all third designs absolutely zilch.  The 56’ coaches had smaller toilets!

 

 In the 1936 appendix, the GWR had a list of LMS lines that could accept 63’ 6.5” long by 9’3” wide stock.  The same stock couldn’t travel over LNER or SR routes.  Similarly there’s a longer list for 60’ x 9’ stock over LNER, LMS & SR.  The dimensions of coaches permitted over ex SE&CR & LB&SCR routes basically only allowed Dean coaches up to 50’ long and nothing more modern.  I guess that there weren’t any through coaches on those routes!

[Jim Martin]

I guess the answer to the OP's question:

At the turn of the century what was the maximum length and width of a carriage that could run from one company to another?  

would be "whatever the company with the more restricted clearances could accommodate". I do know that the Great Central standardised on 60' length when it started building the Robinson matchboard carriages in 1911*, but built a number of 56' carriages to the same general outline specifically for through working to Bournemouth over the GWR (presumably not where the clearance issues were found) and LSWR.

 

Jim

 

* Okay, they built 60' matchboarded coaches in 1910, but I don't think you could say that the Barnums represented any kind of standardisation 

[ChrisN]

13 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

In the 1927 Alterations & Additions to the GA there’s this note

  “coaching stock running between Dovey Junction & Aberdovey must not exceed 60’ in length and 9’ in width “, which effectively ruled out most of Churchward and Collett coaches as those are maximum coach dimensions over handles and buffers.

 

 

That is an interesting fact and is probably a deep rabbit hole that I would not want to start to go down.  (Well, I can take some books on holiday to look at while my wife and I are on the beach.)  It would mean that the later coaches would come down from Ruabon.

 

Do you know when this restriction was lifted?

[Penrhos1920]

On 16/08/2023 at 11:16, Jim Martin said:

I do know that the Great Central standardised on 60' length when it started building the Robinson matchboard carriages in 1911*, but built a number of 56' carriages to the same general outline specifically for through working to Bournemouth over the GWR (presumably not where the clearance issues were found) and LSWR.

 

Jim

 

* Okay, they built 60' matchboarded coaches in 1910, but I don't think you could say that the Barnums represented any kind of standardisation 

 

Thats interesting because the GWR built 4 58’ coaches specifically for the Bournemouth service in 1898.  8’6 wide with guards lookouts at the end which made them 9’ wide.

[Penrhos1920]

On 16/08/2023 at 13:18, ChrisN said:

 

That is an interesting fact and is probably a deep rabbit hole that I would not want to start to go down.  (Well, I can take some books on holiday to look at while my wife and I are on the beach.)  It would mean that the later coaches would come down from Ruabon.

 

Do you know when this restriction was lifted?

 

Its not in the 1936 edition but I don’t have all of the alterations between 1927 & 1936 so I can’t be more specific.

[Brassey]

On 15/08/2023 at 14:49, ChrisN said:

Just to prove myself wrong I checked the 1913 'Through Carriage Workings'.  That specifies '70ft' and '57ft' for some coaches.  The '70' was mostly on the prodigious expresses, or were a few in a train to increase the capacity.  There were a couple of '70' through coaches, one to Weymouth and one to Aberystwyth.  The '57' were mainly slip coaches, (some '70' slip coaches were also specified), but one was specified as it was going to Minehead.

 

Was there a big capacity difference between 57 ft and 56ft?  Would the guard have been sacked if he could only get a 56 instead of a 57?

 

There was a '57' bound for Edinburgh and the owning company was given as 'Cal'.

 

My view is that the carriage diagrams specified '57' in 1912/1913 to identify the more modern stock for the prestigious trains rather than older clerestory stock; I don't think it had anything to do with restrictions.  Having said that,  the '70' stock was only used on the Birkenhead line and not into Crewe so that might have been a restriction.  Certain GWR PBV's were banned on the LNWR because a ducket on one apparently hit a bridge at Crewe.  You often see in the diagrams "wingless" van specified.

 

I recall reading something somewhere by OS Nock that the toplights were created for the North to West route as the contemporary Dreadnaughts and Concertina stock were too big for that line.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Brassey said:

I recall reading something somewhere by OS Nock that the toplights were created for the North to West route as the contemporary Dreadnaughts and Concertina stock were too big for that line.

 

Which came first: the Great Western or London & North Western toplights? A convergence of carriage design for the North & West services...

[billbedford]

37 minutes ago, Brassey said:

I recall reading something somewhere by OS Nock that the toplights were created for the North to West route as the contemporary Dreadnaughts and Concertina stock were too big for that line.

 

70-foot coaches were banned on the Newport and Pontypool Road section because of the tight curves. 

[whart57]

The first corridor coaches on the SECR were intended for inter-company workings, even if they didn't spend all their time on them. They were 50' long tri-composites, though the first ones were only given first and third class as they were intended for through workings to the Midland Railway who had abolished second class. Otherwise they also went on the Great Western and the LNWR. The birdcage brakes on these coaches were modified in order to clear the Metropolitan loading gauge. Some remained on Dover-Birkenhead trains through the 1920s.

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, whart57 said:

The first corridor coaches on the SECR were intended for inter-company workings, even if they didn't spend all their time on them. They were 50' long tri-composites, though the first ones were only given first and third class as they were intended for through workings to the Midland Railway who had abolished second class. 

 

Only a thumbnail, I'm afraid, but the leading carriage in this photo of the 2:30pm down Manchester express at Sileby is one such, the corridor side being seen:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 61354.]

 

Date unknown; after 1907.

[Brassey]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Which came first: the Great Western or London & North Western toplights? A convergence of carriage design for the North & West services...

 

In his pamphlet to the Junior Engineering Society read January 9th 1896, G. J. Churchward stated about brake composites:

 

“A great development has taken place in recent years in the provision of ‘through carriages’ enabling passengers to travel between widely separated points over different Company’s lines without change of carriage.  Such carriages are now run between Plymouth and Glasgow, etc., through the Severn Tunnel, and the necessity has arisen for a coach carrying first, second and third class passengers, together with their luggage, and a guard.”

 

So there was already a precedent of developing carriages for the North to West route before Churchward took over from Dean.  Chruchward's Dreadnaughts first appeared in 1904 and "toplights" 1907 whereas the longer (57 foot) Cove roof coaches replaced the arc roof on the LNWR from 1903.

 

When these first appeared on the NtoW route I do not know but the period I model, 1912, was quite a transition.  Interestingly, the prestigious trains that started out at Manchester and/or Liverpool with these new carriages no longer had a separate luggage van in the consist but would have a brake third of composite leading.  The 9:10 am from Liverpool Lime Street even had a GWR Dining car which ran all the way to Plymouth returning at 12:32pm the next day!

[Compound2632]

@Brassey, what I was getting at was that before the Great War both companies were building 57 ft elliptical-roof corridor carriages with "toplight"-style panelling (on the corridor side only in the case of the LNW carriages). The LNW toplight style came in in 1912; in my studied ignorance of the post-Dean GW, I don't know when the GW toplight style was introduced; I was just wondering if there was some influence - especially if the GW toplights were, as you say, first used on the North and West services, so would come to the attention of LNW men!