What were the Big 4 and subsequently BR's policy on employees taking photographs of their trains?

[Colin_McLeod]

I like that curved three way turnout. 

[RichardT]

On 09/09/2023 at 14:25, melmerby said:

 

On 08/09/2023 at 16:06, RichardT said:

many people think - wrongly - that things like the bullseye (“roundel”

I have some photos of the diamond shaped ones at Moorgate

 

The Met’s none-too-subtle “tribute” to the UERL symbol.  I don’t know for sure, but I suspect this design might not be trademarked!

 

RT

 

EDIT If you ever come across any original examples in a shed or somewhere they will be worth a fortune.  The ones at Moorgate are modern replicas, and LT eliminated the original Met examples - along with the “MetroLand” brand - very quickly after 1933.  The LT Museum only has one example in its collection, in contrast to the hundreds of bullseyes/roundels.

Edited September 10, 2023 by RichardT

[bécasse]

The diamond lozenge signs survived into the post-war years on the East London line which was majority-owned by the Southern Railway and only transferred to the London Transport Executive after nationalisation. The diamond lozenge on these was green and they certainly survived longer than 1948 since I can remember seeing them on at least one station and I only remember one journey on the East London on C-stock (with hand-worked doors) before it was replaced by F-stock.

[RichardT]

Yes, the LT Museum also has one example of a green diamond to go with its red Met one.  Also very valuable if you find another one.

 

RT

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

I like that curved three way turnout. 

It also got me a very remunerative Sunday turn when the Train Meeter let a light engine in without checking that the switch rail for the desired route was fully closed and an EE TYpe 3 duly landed where it shouldn't have landed.  He was adamant that he had checked the point and as he was a regular churchgoer (Sidesman at Llandaff Cathedral) one might assume he was being truthful.

 

Hence he was somewhat shamefaced when, once the erent loco had been removed,  I showed him the piece of ballast that had prevented the point from closing properly.  Fortunately the yard Perway gang, also grateful for a Sunday, were sufficiently resourceful to repair the damage which was just as well as it was a Swindon Switch & Crossing Shop product that had been made to fit the site and that shop was by then long gone

[jim.snowdon]

On 08/09/2023 at 16:06, RichardT said:

This is the key.  TfL are very protective of their trademarks, especially as many people think - wrongly - that things like the bullseye (“roundel” since the late 60s) and the Johnston letterform are now in the public domain and so use them for pub signs, book and record covers etc etc without asking permission.

I have a suspicion that the original Johnston typeface is well out of copyright, given its age and the fact that what TfL now use (and sometimes licence) is 'New Johnston', a tweaked version of the original to restore copyright.

 

[jim.snowdon]

20 hours ago, RichardT said:

LT eliminated the original Met examples - along with the “MetroLand” brand - very quickly after 1933

Although most of the compartment door locks on the two ex-MW stock cars that survived as ESL118A/B still had 'Live in Metroland' engraved on the inside covers.

[jim.snowdon]

On 08/09/2023 at 16:24, Nearholmer said:

As I pointed out above: there isn’t a ban on photography for personal use.

Indeed not, but I can remember that in my time with LU in the 1970s/80s there was an unwritten rule that you should not take photographs that included employees, at least not without their agreement. Beyond that, I had no problems taking photographs in Acton Works, depot and around the system.

 

[adb968008]

I find Eastern Europe to be the most hospitable place for taking photos today. Ive never had any issues with Railway photography anywhere in Asia, Africa or South America either.

 

Ive turned up at more than one shed in Poland with a camera and a magazine unannounced, to find a shed master, whom hasn't just shown me around, but cab rided me around the depot too.

 

Heres one of the last, if not last, diesel hauled motorail services left in Europe, the summer time only Split (Croatia) Croatia to Vienna (Austria) and Bratislava (Slovakia) motorail sleeper service, 31 st August 2023.

 

 

 

video to follow.

 

 

The only locations in the UK ive had issue in recent memory has been Harrow & Wealdstone and Purley which were very-uninformed and heavy handed.
 

Also noted restrictions at Wembley Central, as the fast platforms are quite unsafe. London Victoria platform 2 is closed when no services are due on 1 or 2 due to its narrowness. London Paddington beyond the open ungated platforms can be an issue when theres no steam special unless you do the contractor onboarding, video etc.. then you get a 1 year pass. Glasgow Central does something similar.

Edited September 15, 2023 by adb968008

[Nearholmer]

Wembley has a genuine problem with very narrow platforms, and for reasons that I don’t understand Harrow & Wealdstone has been the location of a number of suicides, so I think the staff there are very wary of anyone hanging about.

[DY444]

On 08/09/2023 at 14:19, Hibelroad said:

Could the London Underground ban also be due to terrorism concerns i.e photos used for surveillance and planning purposes? Terrorism in one form or another has existed for many year and must be a concern on the railways.

 

"Security" is an old chestnut much beloved by heavy handed jobsworth station staff.  As we all know terrorists and agents of foreign powers always walk around with SLRs and camera bags whilst doing reconnaissance.  Anyway these days almost everybody has a camera courtesy of their phone and surreptitious photography has never been easier as a result.  If they can see you're taking pictures then you aren't a terrorist or an agent by definition.   

 

Oh and there is no ban on London Underground providing you stay in public areas, don't use flash and don't cause obstructions with tripods etc.  Even if there was a ban it would be unenforceable given the number of tourists taking pictures and videos.

Edited September 21, 2023 by DY444

[Wheatley]

14 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

"Security" is an old chestnut much beloved by heavy handed jobsworth station staff.  As we all know terrorists and agents of foreign powers always walk around with SLRs and camera bags whilst doing reconnaissance.

Salmon Abedi's three hostile reconnaissance trips around the MEN Arena were missed because security staff were insufficiently trained to even consider it, so its hardly surprising they're a bit more switched on these days. It's not like a railway station has never been blown up before. 

 

Conversely a report which crossed my desk of a passenger phoning the BTP because  three fellow passengers matching a particular stereotype were photographing signals, level crossing equipment and station exits from the train was correctly identified as nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with Pokemon Go by some casual engagement and questioning by the conductor. They get paid to be nosey. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Wheatley

[DY444]

4 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Salmon Abedi's three hostile reconnaissance trips around the MEN Arena were missed because security staff were insufficiently trained to even consider it, so its hardly surprising they're a bit more switched on these days. It's not like a railway station has never been blown up before. 

 

Conversely a report which crossed my desk of a passenger phoning the BTP because  three fellow passengers matching a particular stereotype were photographing signals, level crossing equipment and station exits from the train was correctly identified as nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with Pokemon Go by some casual engagement and questioning by the conductor. They get paid to be nosey. 

 

 

 

That kind of proves my point though.  They failed to spot the one they needed to spot and the ones that were observed, and therefore making it clear what they doing, were not a threat.  

[Forward!]

I rarely take my bulky (and admittedly rather old- 2015) DSLR camera out for casual trips anymore. My phone is basically the equivalent of a £1k camera that also happens to be able to make phone calls. It is also the same device that I refer to for real time train data. The absence of the traditional "on trend" accoutrements of the trainspotter- the SLR camera, a satchel of ABC guides or paper note books has long led me to believe that station staff are more proactive about inquiring after welfare of spotters on the platforms: They just don't look any different from anyone else who sits there for hours and doesn't catch a train for no obvious reason. Good on them, I say. It must be hard to differentiate between those who are there because they're interested in the trains and those who have other, sadder, intentions.

 

Like others have said. Absolutely shows the value of striking up a chat with fellow passengers and station staff too. Can't ever do any harm!

Edited September 21, 2023 by Forward!

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

That kind of proves my point though.  They failed to spot the one they needed to spot and the ones that were observed, and therefore making it clear what they doing, were not a threat.  

My point was that the whole 'large numbers of soft targets people concentrated in public spaces' industry is now more switched on as a result, so expect to be questioned or atvleast engaged with. Agreed it can be overdone on occasions but every walk of life has its share of officious people on a power trip. 

[SM42]

Only been challenged once, many years ago, whilst trainspotting with my 16 yr old nephew at Waterloo. ( he's 42 now) 

 

We had arrived by train and taken up position towards a platform end

 

We were approached by a member of staff who asked what we were up to. We explained and he left us to it, reminding us not to go beyond  the signs af the platform end. 

 

Seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

 

Mind you  last time I took a photo of a signalbox in Poland, the signaller  was on the phone looking out of the window at us as we left.

 

I was half expecting to be pulled by the plod at some point. 

 

Maybe they were told to relax by whomever they phoned.

After all, why visit in person when Google has done it for you. 

 

Andy

[keefer]

4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

by some casual engagement and questioning by the conductor. They get paid to be nosey. 

Another scenario where I believe staff may take an interest in someone, especially if loitering on a platform with no obvious desire to board a train, is unfortunately, the possibility that said person is contemplating stepping off the platform in front of the next arrival.

I don't know but part of their training may be to recognise certain behaviours that might indicate a suicide risk. In which case, any intervention may be enough.

As mentioned above though, surely softer, respectful engagement is preferable anyway to a full-on 'oi you!' approach.