Locomotive Profiles for (Non Sound) DCC Decoders

[NFWEM57]

I am trying o find out if there are profiles available for (ESU) DCC Decoders. Not sound decoders, just ordinary decoders.  Every loco is different and I am surprised there is not a site or a service available to list the CV adjustments required.  A Hornby Railroad Class 37 will obviously require different CV setting to a Bachmann or Accurascale one.   Anybody have any idea if there are such profiles available?

Edited September 26, 2023 by NFWEM57
typo

[WIMorrison]

5 minutes ago, NFWEM57 said:

Every loco is different ...

 

You answered your question in your own post

Edited September 26, 2023 by WIMorrison
spelling

[NFWEM57]

Thank for the very swift response but, no, I did not.  My question was about profiles being available.  My observation was that every loco would be different..!  

 

So, maybe we should start one?

Edited September 26, 2023 by NFWEM57
additional info

[WIMorrison]

... and because every loco is different it impossible to provide a list of settings for each loco

[ITG]

I couldn’t claim to be a font of knowledge on this, but two identical (when manufactured) locos may have very different histories. One could be old, but rarely run, rarely lubricated. Another could be run regularly but looked after in all ways. I would expect the characteristics emerging from  these polar opposites to be very different. The inherited frictions and wear would (could)  cause different speeds, braking and acceleration - hence different compensating cv profiles.

[NFWEM57]

We have mapped the human genome, so this task would be many many orders of magnitude smaller.  You have to start somewhere.  There are circa 7,500 locos in the Model Rail Database and many will be the same model in different liveries.  So that might reduce the list to 750,   A tiny list in reality.  If CVs are provided for the main decoder manufactures that might increase 5 fold.  So, 3,750 profiles and many settings will be similar.  But think of the benefit to others less certain of what CV setting to use.  As far as i am aware, there is no copyright on CV settings...! So, if modeller X wished to use a little known decoder for his little know model of a class 37 for example then a range of profiles might be available for baseline settings.  

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by NFWEM57
typo

[NFWEM57]

5 minutes ago, ITG said:

The inherited frictions and wear would (could)  cause different speeds, braking and acceleration - hence different compensating cv profiles.

Would be the same for any decoder fitted, sound or otherwise.  It's the baseline settings that are the starting point.

Edited September 26, 2023 by NFWEM57

[WIMorrison]

I have several; locos that are ostensibly all the same - at least the body shell and motors are the same, as are the decoders.

 

The CV settings for each loco are different as would be expected.

 

This question has been mooted before and the answer is the same each and every time - there is no standard set of cvs or values for every loco

 

This is the equivalent of the genome for my decoders CV List (zimo.at), but that is sod all use to you, but just as relevant as you comments about mapping of the human genome.

[NFWEM57]

1 minute ago, WIMorrison said:

but just as relevant as you comments about mapping of the human genome.

It was to indicate the scale of the task, nothing more.  A manufacture's CV list does not provide an idea of what to set for a particular class/model, that is the issue.

[WIMorrison]

ands the settings for every loco are different

[NFWEM57]

 I have a few class 37s from different manufacturers fitted with factory set decoders. Perhaps it would be a worthwhile exercise to generate a comparison list to see what the CV spread is.  

[spamcan61]

In terms of adjusting the motor drive, at least, many decoders (including the Hornby TXS ones) have an 'auto tune' facility to match the decoder to the motor's characteristics. So that's probably the trickiest bit done anyway. I would expect some variation between samples of any loco anyway, so the current feature is more useful than a generic one.

Edited September 26, 2023 by spamcan61

[NFWEM57]

Which just leaves acceleration, braking, etc.

[jamesed]

Hmmm the answer to this is exactly as Iain has said.  For every locomotive from each manufacturer there may be many different variants as component parts have changed over the years all based upon the same tooling and outward appearance. Add to that the number of different manufacturers of decoders, and the various sub sets of ranges each makes, and the variations in performance of each one as firmware upgrades are applied. Let's not even consider the number of different scales.  You just can't assume that two apparently the same locos will have the same performance. Decoders play a big part in this too and it is well understood that there are wide variations of performance from one brand to another. Even with the best, such as Zimo for example,  the MX decoders perform differently from the new MN decoders. It all changes again when you start to factor in consist performance and the different ways of setting this up available with different brands, or sometimes even within the same decoder type. 

 

As Iain said, every one can be different and could be used in a different way depending upon the layout (and I've not even touched on inclines on layouts).  Setting up decoders for performance levels that suit the individual circumstances is all part of what many of us find to be quite a fun part of working with dcc.  For others they are just happy to stick with default settings. For anyone struggling to come up with the best combination of cv settings to suit their wishes then that's where a forum like this can be helpful. 

[Dungrange]

3 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

Which just leaves acceleration, braking, etc.

 

Which are largely personal preference.  Some people like their locos to respond as they did on DC (ie near instantaneous acceleration and braking), whereas others will prefer long slow acceleration as per the prototype, as though the train was hauling a heavy load.  The size of layout will also have a bearing on the values chosen.  If you're constrained to a small end to end layout, setting the acceleration at a value where it would take three times the length of your layout to reach running speed wouldn't be particularly useful.  If we compress model distances, then we need to adjust CVs to suit our layout.

 

3 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

I have a few class 37s from different manufacturers fitted with factory set decoders. Perhaps it would be a worthwhile exercise to generate a comparison list to see what the CV spread is.  

 

That would probably be your start point.  If anything exists, it will be someone like yourself who has has undertaken comparative testing and then posted the result on their blog.  Maybe there are only 750 model locomotives, but different generations of the same model will perform differently (so you can probably double that number) and then you have not just different decoder manufacturers, but different decoder versions, with different firmware versions.  Multiplying all the various combinations may get you closer to a million than you think.  I agree that it would be simpler than mapping the human genome, but what modeller can be bothered to purchase one of every locomotive version and try it with all the main decoder options available in the UK.  It would be an expensive, time consuming exercise, which would be of little value to whoever created the database you seek.

[RAF96]

If the decoder has the facility then use auto-calibrate of motor characteristics. Some decoders are better than others at this procedure.

[Kaput]

What would probably be of more use and isn't something that changes between individual models would be a database of sorts listing what exactly each function output is connected to.

 

 

[Dungrange]

4 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

So, maybe we should start one?

 

If by 'we' you mean you, then why not?  Someone has to take the lead.  Produce something based on the combination of locomotives and decoders you have, along with your recommended CV settings.  See if other people find it useful.  If they do, you may get other collaborators.  If not, it's an idea that will just die off until someone else asks the same question in a few years time.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

5 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

Every loco is different and I am surprised there is not a site or a service available to list the CV adjustments required.

My general formula of basic adjustments for main line traction operation.

 

Run the loco for at least a couple of hours, reversing regularly,  until confident performance is stable.

Set CV2 to as small a value as possible that reliably just starts the loco at dead slow in both directions.

Set CV5 to the value that delivers the required maximum speed.

Set CV6 to a value that delivers the required mid range speed point.

Programme CV's 3 and 4 to a minimum of 50 and preferably more. 

 

That delivers the results I want. You might find it suits, or not. It's not just mechanisms that are different but operator's tastes too. 

[NFWEM57]

1 minute ago, Dungrange said:

If by 'we' you mean you, then why not? 

You just beat me to it..!  OK, I have 5 types of Class 37 in my collection, all EM gauge, without traction tyres and all Ultrascale. Alan Gibson or Accurascale wheelsets:

• A Lima Class 37 with full size CD motor, it just fits because of the EM gauge conversion.  ESU LokPilot V5 DCC C37 profile 
• A Lima Class 37 with a railroad chassis and AG wheel sets plus additional weight.  ESU LokPilot V5 DCC C37 profile
• Several Bachmann 4 wheel drive with Ultrascale wheels with vanilla ESU V5 Basic 
• Several Bachmann 6 wheel drive with Ultrascale wheels, one with Bachman factory fitted ESU V5 Sound Programmed 
• Several Accurascale with 6 wheel drive Accurascale wheels, all with Accurascale ESU V5 DCC Sound Programmed

So we are looking at similar traction, metal on metal, I will measure draw bar pull and look at the CV settings across the collection.  It will not be overnight, sporting season coming to an end and I am team captain.  But as some have indicated, its a start.  And that was always my goal so that those less confident or unsure have a starting point. Yes, some like 0 to Mach 2 in a splits second, no adjustment needed.  But, it will be a useful exercise to see what the CV variation is.

 

Assessment about what each lighting CV does noted and I have a DCC modification that allow direction sensitive Red lights and Cab lights using one Aux function respectively only.

 

Once I have the results I will upload.  Sound decoders come preconfigured, but I do not use sound for the large part but I do want the loco characteristic for non sound decoders.

 

Thanks for the the feedback.

[NFWEM57]

5 hours ago, Dungrange said:

If not, it's an idea that will just die off until someone else asks the same question in a few years time.

Yes, rinse, lather, repeat seems to be common to many forums..!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The CV  settings ranges will be interesting to see. The Lima will be very different from the centre motor drives if my past experience is in anyway typical.

 

The Bachmann motor design in their diesels has been very consistent in both exterior appearance and stable sustained performance;  these are from 23 purchases,from the 1992 purchase of the Peak, to the class 105 introduced  2010. Within any chassis design the range of CV settings values is very small indeed, a range of 1 or 2 from 255 steps; sufficiently small that it may be the decoder is contributing some of the variance...

 

Hornby's very similar looking motor has been by comparison 'all over the place'. Only four examples and all have been operationally perfectly satisfactory and stable long term, but all of start voltage, maximum speed and mid speed deviated significantly from each other over the three examples in the same chassis design, one of which had such a wayward response that a custom curve had to be programmed. Exchanges of decoders placed all the variances with the motors, and I had removed all the circuit boards and belt drive to the fan as superfluous too...

 

Heljan, sample of five large motors, five small. Much like the Bachmann, really nothing to report in the way of variance in settings within any of the four chassis designs.

[BoD]

Drifting a little (what? on RMweb?)  but has anyone found the need to change CV settings over time as wear and tear or other changes to motors, transmissions, wheels etc affect a loco’s performance? I haven’t run any of my locos long enough yet to find any need for this but have seen quite considerable deterioration in performance of locos ‘given the hammer’ (albeit on a DC layout) and was wondering if this might eventually become an issue.  Or even a problem that could be alleviated, up to a point,  by changing CVS.

[WIMorrison]

52 minutes ago, BoD said:

Drifting a little (what? on RMweb?)  but has anyone found the need to change CV settings over time as wear and tear or other changes to motors, transmissions, wheels etc affect a loco’s performance?

 

Because I run an automated layout plus exhibit this is something I do on a regular basis because I need to know the exact speeds that locos are moving to ensure the automation works perfectly. The speeds and performance can vary significantly due to many factors such as temperature, heat of motors, wear in motors and running gear, wear on brushes, state of the track. These may not have significant impact ver one 8 hour running session, but over a period of a month they can have a significant impact.

 

This is just one example of why a 'database' of CV settings isn't a practical idea.

[NFWEM57]

Whilst I appreciate that hard run locomotives on exhibition layouts need constant maintenance and/or adjustment, this is probably an outlier example, but useful information regarding operating at, or outside of, the design envelope.  Once set up, I doubt I will need to adjust the CVs in my locomotive very often...!

 

So, perhaps a database of pertinent locomotive characteristics used to inform the relevant CV settings.  For example, acceleration and deceleration times, speed curves, light configuration, braking.  They won't necessarily all be as per the prototype, but would provide the (average) baseline as used by manufacturers for specific models. I have been involved with complex engineering for decades and we always set systems to baseline setting before fine tuning, be that mechanical, electrical or electronic.

 

I'll run my Class 37 tests and see what comes of it.  I'll also try to find out about the operating characteristics of the prototype; which might prove difficult...!