Large Scale Display Loco

[Richard Wills]

Hello Everybody . I'm new to this forum so please forgive me if I put my foot in it !

I have been making models of aircraft for the last thirty years and decided that , having seen my then local heritage railway running live steam , that I would like to make a model of a mainline steam loco , large enough to have a bit of "wow factor" . 

Large , is of course , relative . My aircraft were typically between 55" to 100" span . So model trains seemed relatively conservative in comparison .

Luckily , the contacts I have from the model aviation world are very handy when it comes to design and development of a new idea . I have access to 3D printers , friends who are 3D designers and also high end printers . Also an old friend with very sophisticated laser cutters . 

However , before calling in on any favours I had to rough out a basic idea . 

My local heritage Railway at the time (just before Covid) "BC" , was Epping and Ongar . I noted that they had just had Pitchford Hall restored . As a subject , this slid nicely into place . 

The Hall ticked a lot of boxes . Many built , so many variants and colour schemes , simple motion , and generally clean and straightforward design . 

I blew up an available three view to about 30" long and after printing some 3D wheels , constructed the rest in foam board available from hobby craft . It's a great product for mock ups and prototypes , as it's cheap , clean and provides a nice finish if you want to paint it . 

This prototype , I named the "Ghost Train " . It was white , so that wasn't a ground breaking idea for a name !

However , I hadn't really thought about the size at all . 30" looked about right until I realised I would also have to make some track to stand it on . The reason that 30" looked in the ball park , was because I wanted it to have some presence on a shelf / windowsill or mantlepiece . 

As it turned out , slightly bigger looked even better . I suppose on refection I should have thought about the handful of Napoleonic warships I had made , which were all about one metre long and looked great on display in my dining room . 

A little further web surfing , found a little jem in the form Of Cliff Barker .  He was coincidentally running a 3 Gauge event in his beautiful garden , which was only about 40mins away . 

I popped over on a beautiful sunny day and saw the track he made and also some 3 Gauge enthusiasts.  Now this was the size that looked just right . 

The "Ghost Train " below is just the beginning of this story . Yes , it looks crude , but there is much more to come . 

After the visit to Cliff's I also had a look at Live steam in various large sizes . As I suspected , I would not be able to afford anything like that as it ran in to thousands of pounds . I also figured that many other people like me would dream of owning a large steam loco but realistically be confined to 00 or perhaps O gauge . Seemed a shame as when I saw the full size on a steam day , it was the shear size and weight that conveyed the real character in much the same way as a Lancaster bomber . 

The other advantage I had was that for many years I had modelled aircraft from wood , but finished them as if made from metal . In other words as long as the illusion was convincing then I had many more options compared with insisting on metals like brass , (which as we all know , full size locos were not made of ) . There's irony . 

A lot of the chaps I spoke to who did own live steam , rarely ran them or didnt run them at all (I'm sure some do regularly also ) . But they did enjoy having a big loco to look at for all of the reasons already mentioned . 

I did also look at available kits on the market . Few and far between , none seemed to be based on British Steam . 

[Richard Wills]

Of course , looking back at the mock up now , it looks almost comical . But there has to be a start point . 

Equally , there has to be an aiming point . So if I show you how my  Spitfire turned out on the same basis and also where we are going then maybe you will decide to pop back now and then to have a look at progress . 

So . two pictures , my Spitfire which also started with a similar mock up and the Hall Class that we are aiming to produce a convincing replica of .

[Richard Wills]

The next thing to do was "flesh out " the prototype . I needed better drawings and ideally a close up with the real thing . 

A quick chat with Dean Walton (the boss at Ongar Epping ) secured me a visit with camera in hand . Dean and Tony couldnt have been more helpful and allowed me to have good crawl around Pitchford hall prior to a steam run . 

She is in fabulous condition as to be expected . A fine example of the subject being modelled . 

In the mean time , I managed to get hold of some better drawings . The wheels of these high speed locos are really important in a model . In some way their delicacy and detail hints at performance . 

To that end I decided to make the wheels out of several sandwiched separate pieces . This would give the element of depth and definition needed . 

After being drawn , they were cut by laser , which also causes a rather nice contrast by slightly burning the wood . You can see the front bogie assembly coming together here 

[Richard Wills]

The beauty of this kind of design and construction , is the speed , accuracy and delicate detail that can be incorporated . Obviously , we have long way to go , but its obvious , that even at this stage , high quality results can be achieved . 

Its a strange thing that with Railway modellers there is compulsion to "run everything " . That is perhaps why , 00 and N gauge have worked so well . At those scales , a nice layout will fit in a spare bedroom and we can stand several feet above it in a god like surveyance . Great for seeing the proceedings unfold , but putting one of those small locos on a display shelf didnt really hit the spot for me . 

Since bigger is not necessarily more expensive , then once you accept it doesnt have to move , then so much more is possible . Lets face it , even if we had the money , how many people have a garden big enough for 3 Gauge?

That doesnt mean I wouldn't want a couple parked up in my living room !  They do look fabulous .

Its also worth consider that the majority of modellers build static models . Surely Airfix Tamiya and Revell are good examples of that ?

I also think that sometimes a little diversion from a longer term project can be quite refreshing . We have all had big ideas where we totally underestimated the time consumed and sometimes a quick "pick me up" project , perhaps on a slightly different track (pun intended) , can put a bit of vigour back into our hobby . 

 

[Richard Wills]

The beauty of this kind of design and construction , is the speed , accuracy and delicate detail that can be incorporated . Obviously , we have long way to go , but its obvious , that even at this stage , high quality results can be achieved . 

Its a strange thing that with Railway modellers there is compulsion to "run everything " . That is perhaps why , 00 and N gauge have worked so well . At those scales , a nice layout will fit in a spare bedroom and we can stand several feet above it in a god like surveyance . Great for seeing the proceedings unfold , but putting one of those small locos on a display shelf didnt really hit the spot for me . 

Since bigger is not necessarily more expensive , then once you accept it doesnt have to move , then so much more is possible . Lets face it , even if we had the money , how many people have a garden big enough for 3 Gauge?

That doesnt mean I wouldn't want a couple parked up in my living room !  They do look fabulous .

Its also worth consider that the majority of modellers build static models . Surely Airfix Tamiya and Revell are good examples of that ?

I also think that sometimes a little diversion from a longer term project can be quite refreshing . We have all had big ideas where we totally underestimated the time consumed and sometimes a quick "pick me up" project , perhaps on a slightly different track (pun intended) , can put a bit of vigour back into our hobby . 

 

[Richard Wills]

Ok so now the general build principle has been established . I decided to start with the tender .  I could have made it without tabs , but as I intended to make few versions (some painted) the extra time of adding some lugs and locators means that the build can easily and accurately be repeated. I didnt perhaps make it clear that the model has now been enlarged to fit 3 gauge track . That makes the overall length 98cm. 

Here are a few steps in the tender assembly . Obviously I could carry on adding detail.  So there is scope for just a wooden version at one end of the spectrum and a full on scale replica with all the whistles and bells at the other.

[Richard Wills]

I made the sides reversible so that I could choose to keep the GW marking or not . On the painted version I would be applying a coat of sanding sealer , rubbing back then priming with an aerosol . Those simple steps do provide you with a surface ready to paint . And lets be honest , once you cant see the grain and it has a coat of primer , it could well be metal . The illusion is beginning !

Hycote primer is excellent and cheaper than Halfords . You can normally get tow or three cans on a deal from amazon . Grey primer and satin black are obviously good choices . 

How are we doing out there ? Anybody got any questions or comments?

[jjb1970]

The comment about the importance of running models is well observed and something I have often wondered about. I  collect brass models which I display. Even though I very rarely run them I still consider it important to me that they be operable. In Asia there are a lot of static train models, some of which are beautifully done to exceptionally high standards of detail yet I can't get enthusiastic about them even though I rarely run my brass stuff.

 

Great work and a great thread BTW.

[Richard Wills]

Everyone is wired differently JJb . I guess that for most of us , budget is unfortunately the biggest restraint on indulging in our chosen hobby . 

The model aviation world long ago realised that a miniature Rolls Royce Merlin was not going to be a viable option and settled for small single cylinder IC engines then generally on to electric . 

The Railway fans have a very broad spectrum in comparison . 00 is predominantly plastic bodied and electric , yet at the top of the tree is all brass live steam . 

Seems funny that until recently wood has been shunned . Some very good wooden rolling stock kits are beginning to rock the boat a bit . But ruts have been run deep for many years . Not a criticism , just an honest observation . 

If we open up the boundaries in terms of scale and materials, we might all get more out of the hobby and have more options . 

[Richard Wills]

The beauty of 3d design is that you can see what the model will look like before it really exists , the second benefit is that it is far easier for someone else to follow with a duplicate build once demonstrated visually .

The old adage "a picture is worth a thousand words" has never been more true.

Below you can see the exploded drawing of the front bogie that we have already seen in "live format " . The assembly is clear to even a rank beginner . If we want new people to bolster our ranks then this must be the way to go . 

Underneath that , you can see a virtual drawing of the whole loco (minus details) . 

Again , its good to see where you're going as it keeps up momentum and spurs you on . 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Richard Wills

[Richard Wills]

A nice shot in the arm yesterday , as I managed to get down to Didcot and see the last steam day of Pitchford Hall. The rebuild really was a superb job and she looks and sounds in fine fettle . 

We are lucky to be able to get up so close to the subjects we model . Thank goodness that somebody has the funds to keep them going . 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Richard Wills

[Richard Wills]

I think we should now have a look at the main chassis and how it clips together . It follows a similar format to the tender but it also incorporates some more sophisticated shapes , which could have been a bit of a challenge . 

Like all things , after a couple of runs at it , I got to the final variation that looks slick and polished . The tricky bits were always going to be the main boiler and firebox . 

Below you can see the main frames and then the bulkheads that keep the frames square . Note the extensive use of locator lugs , so that the model remains straight and any following builds go exactly the same . 

Remember, I am intending to build a wooden version to be left in its rather beautiful natural form , but also a few painted versions that will assume the look of a large scale live steam model . 

[Richard Wills]

The big driving wheels are made of similar six pieces as the front bogie wheels . This results in a very elegant complete with rim detail  , driving pins and counterbalance . 

The rest of the chassis is supported underneath and very thin high spec ply is used for the top of the wheel covers and the very front of the main footplate . 

If the ply is reluctant to ben d , I found that you could soak it and wrap round a suitable shape then leave overnight. 

However , being an impatient soul , the short cut was to apply a heat gun like that used for stripping paint . This warms the glue inside ply to allow one laminate slide over the other . This way you can put a curve into the wood in about 30 seconds !

 

[Richard Wills]

On the painted version it is worth considering when to paint each section . A bit like when we use to paint Airfix kits . We often did the interiors first . 

In this case , the chassis is usually , almost entirely black , so rubbing down and priming at this stage makes sense . Equally , although a trial fit of the boiler and cab is essential , it is far easier to paint those items separately . 

 

[Richard Wills]

Okay , so Its Firebox next . The skin already has the correct vents laser cut in . The skin is also made of high spec thin ply in order to give a fine finish . 

The main internal skeleton slots together, then the skin can either be soaked or heated to bend around the frame and left overnight . To be honest I have developed a few little jigs so rather than me or anyone else having to find out the hard way , I intend to make a batch of boilers and fireboxes and keep them in stock . Its not that its really difficult . More the opposite . Once you have the method and confidence , its easy . So why put others through it ?

In the last image you can see a nice piece of pre cut dense wood that will allow the front edge of the firebox to curve toward the boiler . This piece also helps to stabilize the boiler while you paint it (if that is your preferred option ).

Edited October 2, 2023 by Richard Wills

[Richard Wills]

We are a way off from finishing the model , but I did take time to mock up this unfinished model to show exactly how big this loco is . However ,It fits comfortably on most window sills , or a nice metre long shelf on the wall . 

I guess what it reminds us of , is how small 00 is . Something we all grew up as viewing as standard . As I said before though , one for running and one for showing . Makes a lot of sense really . I cant imagine my wife allowing me to cut some holes in the wall of my house and have a nice 3 gauge track running from room to room . (would be fun though ) . Maybe if it could haul a little Prosecco dispenser , she might go for it ?

Yes that is the Hornby 00 model.

[Richard Wills]

Back to the build .its the Cab next . 

Pretty straightforward really . It ends up being nice and stable once the firebox is firmly mounted . You can see the moun t in the third picture . Plenty of scope for detail too at this size . Ive tried various options .  A vacformed plastic facia is quick and effective , but Ive also tried 3D "wood printed " , which gives very sharp definition of pipes and controls . This can be enhanced by adding some .........2.5mm electrical cable stripped of its covering . Does a very good impression of copper pipe and really catches the eye . 

The cab roof does really need a little preforming . But its a gentle curve so heating or soaking works fine .  The last shot is obviously the full size . I will post some of the options mentioned above later . 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Richard Wills

[Richard Wills]

The trouble with me is , its a bit like chocolate biscuits..........

I just cant stop at one !

[CWJ]

Hi Richard,

 

As someone who's given up trying to find the time and space for a layout, sold off most of his 00-gauge stuff and is now planning a display cabinet for the remaining models that are too precious (to me) to get rid of, I can empathise with your point that not all models need to be working to be enjoyed.

 

As for building from wood, perhaps most of us are put off by the extra skill needed to make something that stays straight and square, compared with the more stable favourites of styrene or brass. Or perhaps the fact that laser-cut wood is essentially a 2D medium so it takes a bit more effort to make something that would conventionally be cast or moulded.

 

It's refreshing to see someone using different techniques from the norm, so please keep posting despite the limited feedback! I have no intention of building a loco from wood but I'm more likely

to learn something new from this thread than from someone using a more well-known method.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[33C]

28 minutes ago, Richard Wills said:

The trouble with me is , its a bit like chocolate biscuits..........

I just cant stop at one !

Very moreish!

[Richard Wills]

Hello Chris . Nice to hear a voice from the woods 😁. I like your points . Particularly about wood being a 2D medium and also being difficult to maintain accuracy without skill . 

Laser cutting makes alignment a piece of cake for those that follow the prototype . So its fine if someone puts in the donkey work first . On the other hand , wood is one of the easiest mediums to work with . I can see why you mention 2D . Those clever but rather skeletal models you see imported from China that are fire engines or even locos ,have a flat pack look about them . The illusion is not complete because as you say , they are clearly made from flat pieces like a jig saw . 

I think with all modelling of trains , cars , planes or buildings , it doesn't matter what its made of . The litmus test for me is "does it look believable"?   Also I think once you accept that wood is easy to modify and work with then you have many more options . For example , somebody might take one of these Hall Class designs and adapt it to make a Black 5 . Surely easier to start with half a story than none at all ? At the moment , nobody offers English Locos and yet several companies tout American and European display models . Surely with our massive railway heritage , we should be well represented ?

Edited October 3, 2023 by Richard Wills

[Jeremy Cumberland]

That's a lovely set of models you are building.

 

Would you mind explaining in more detail how you formed the firebox? The 3D model of the firebox shows the internal structure, but not how you formed the wrapper.

 

I am a little surprised that the firebox frame doesn't have ribs to support the wrapper and maintain its shape, from which I infer it must hold its shape pretty well without needing support.

 

What thickness wood did you use for the wrapper? Is it a single layer or did you laminate it?

[Richard Wills]

Yes Jeremy , of course , High quality marine ply comes in various thicknesses.  Traditionally they came in imperial sizes . So for the thinner laminates 1/16th " . 1/32" and 1/64th"  are used . The model aircraft world where I usually reside tend to use 1/32nd a lot . It gets used where strength is required and is quite often used to stiffen softer wood . In this case 1/64th is used because the rather fine roof supports (as per the real thing ) would struggle to keep 1/32nd sprung to a curve .  Whereas 1/64th doesnt put up much of a fight when you bend it .

Once you appreciate that even something as thin as 1/64th is still a laminate of two different skins and glue in the middle like a jam sandwich that has congealed over the years and gone stiff . 

Now , if you heat the jam up with heat gun then wrap it round a bottle while it cools , it will lock into a new curved shape. The ply skin is just one piece of ply as is the boiler skin that you will soon see . . This thin ply is incredibly strong and does not need much support . You would certainly never get the "starved horse look " as the skin itself has fantastic integrity . 

When I make the boilers which are around 12" long without firebox , the join runs down the underside but there is only a former in each end . Yet you can whack one on the table and nothing happens . 

The non plywood parts (90%) are made of Tulip wood which is a kind of Poplar . It has a finish which has a little more grain than the marine ply , but its still quite fine and easy to prime for painting . It has a nice colour if we consider that many people just like the wooden variant.

Just to make sure I have answered you question on the firebox . 
I build the skeleton (it clips together ) dab some superglue on the joints (time spent about 2mins so far ) then bulldog clip the skin to one of the bottom rails . I then heat up the skin with the heat gun and wrap the skin right round the frame . The skin by then has taken on roughly the shape with the two tight top corners being locked into the skin when it cools . I then just run a little wood glue under the skin and put some elastic bands round it . 

Its actually easy once you realise that while hot , the wood is flexible.   

The boiler and firebox will be pre made for anyone that wants to follow me on this venture so really , the build would just plugging lugs into holes . 

However for people who want to experiment with this wood then ask "Balsa Cabin " in Maldon, Essex , to send you some 1/64th ply to play with . It has loads of uses .  1/32nd is less flexible but cheaper . 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Thank you very much, that's very clear, and not at all what I expected. The firebox frame doesn't look like it has enough support to act as a former, having just the two ends and a few longitudinals, and for that matter I'd never have thought that anything as thin as 1/64" would be robust enough. Your point about not getting a "starved horse look" is well-noted!

 

What thickness is the firebox frame, in particular the two end pieces?

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[Richard Wills]

High quality marine ply is far superior to the stuff you see in Band Q . Consequently , it is more expensive . However , as modellers , even at this scale , it is good value . The endplates are made of 3mm , as is most of the loco . This is a useful thickness as formers are stiff enough in their own right , but it doesnt look too clumsy . 

The whole idea of using different materials , I could write a book on !  In many aspects of modelling we stick to the same format . For example , if you look at large scale plastic modelling , they are currently paying £500 for a largish Lancaster Bomber (I think 1/24) . As you would expect , the model has many parts and of course the moulds for those parts is why it is expensive . However Imagine if I could present a Lancaster kit at twice that size for the same money ? They would be very tempted when they saw the complete and painted model , but then real back in horror when they found it was made of wood and 3D printed parts . The two comments would be : "Its not a proper kit"  or "I dont know how to work with wood " . 

Thats why I like your questions . We need to understand that wood is very  easy to work and modify and also that people who are already modelling in many forms have most of the skills they require already .  3D printing is another good example . I do it when I want small details . But those who think that 3D is everything , print whole models . That takes hundreds of hours and is not the best way if the shape is large and straight forward . A perfect model of anything really should be made of a number of materials for maximum time and money efficiency . 

Below is a good example , my 100" wingspan of a Lancaster , made mostly of balsa wood , a little plywood and powered by electric motors but with sound . It looks and flies totally realistic and yet clearly is an illusion wearing a skin . The funning thing is , if it was made of alloy it wouldnt leave the ground and wouldnt be strong enough if it could !   Again , you can see that the structure must be right for the job , not necessarily the same as the full size . Its the skin and paint that is critical .