Help signalling early 50s suburban West Riding GNR Station

[AJ427]

My latest layout is a GNR West Riding station in the early British Railways era. Space constraints meant it was impossible to model a real location so the layout is fictitious but inspired by various elements of the Queensbury Lines system. With most track at least temporarily down thoughts have turned to signalling and point rodding.

First off, I’ve re-read the Bob Essery book as well as studying numerous signal box diagrams that depict similar track configurations and I’m hoping I’ve come up with something about right, but I’d greatly appreciate if any of the signalling gurus could have a look and comment.

One thing to note - most diagrams I studied were generally numbered left to right from the signalman’s POV, but I’ve done it from my POV as the operator (i.e. the opposite way from the box).

One area of concern is the Down Home signal (17). Would this need a repeater as it would be invisible from the cutting? Or could it be an extra high signal to sight above the bridge. Model railway curves don’t help!

 

Levers:

1. Up Distant (off stage/not modelled)

2. Up Home

3. Up Starter

4. Up Advanced Starter (off stage/not modelled)

5. Spare

6. Spare

7. Disc Down Siding to Up line (yellow to allow moves to head shunt)

8. Points (Down Siding Exit & Slip)

9. Disc Down to Up line

10. Points (Crossover Slip & Up)

11. Disc

12. Disc Up Siding to Up line

13. Points (Up Siding Trap & Exit)

14. Spare

15. Spare

16. Down Starter

17. Down Home

18. Down Distant (off stage/not modelled)

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by AJ427
revised diagrams for better clarity

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, AJ427 said:

One thing to note - most diagrams I studied were generally numbered left to right from the signalman’s POV, but I’ve done it from my POV as the operator (i.e. the opposite way from the box).

I had to do exactly that for Heath Town.

If you assume the frame is at the back of the box (where the line above SB is) them it is numbered correctly.

Paul.

[5BarVT]

Not far off, although my experience is mainly WR.  Having said that, from what I’ve seen of other regions there was a lot in common.

I would expect 11 to be the other side of 13 to give 12, 13, 14 as you have done with the other crossovers.

 

Typically on WR boxes there would be three consecutive spares, thus allowing for a future crossover should traffic needs warrant, in your case I would leave them at the left hand end so 5, 6, 7 and shove everything up by one til you hit the gap.

 

One further thing to consider is no.11 (my 14) which reads three ways.  It could be off one lever, or it could be a triple disc with three levers. Using my numbering: top to up side sidings 12, middle to down main 13, siding exit becomes 14, siding points 15, bottom to down sidings 16, then push the down line signals up be one to give a 19 lever frame.

 

Paul.

[LNERGE]

Would it be prudent to move 9 a bit further back from 10?

[5BarVT]

18 minutes ago, LNERGE said:

Would it be prudent to move 9 a bit further back from 10?

Missed that, I was concentrating on numbering!

Paul.

[LNERGE]

Find where the diverging rails are 6ft apart and measure back sixteen feet six inches though i think it has changed a bit now?

[LNERGE]

A couple of GN(Southern Area) double track box diagrams. Palmers Green 15 and it's repeater are interesting.

Edited September 29, 2023 by LNERGE

[bécasse]

Don't forget that all the discs would be "upper quadrant" ones, a distinctive feature of the LNER and its constituents, not only do these discs move "off" in the opposite to those on other railways, but the glazed holes to provide night-time aspects are in different places on the discs too.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, LNERGE said:

Find where the diverging rails are 6ft apart and measure back sixteen feet six inches though i think it has changed a bit now?

I don’t think the fundamentals have changed much, just the way it was expressed, and certainly for early BR that applied.

BUT that assumes scale track so if it’s 00 you have to factor in the extra narrowness!

I go back to first principles 18” passing clearance  ~6mm - works out roughly 6” back from the V in 00.

Paul.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

 

4 hours ago, LNERGE said:

Would it be prudent to move 9 a bit further back from 10?

Does signal 9 have to protect movements in and out of the yard?

[Flying Pig]

7 hours ago, AJ427 said:

Or could it be an extra high signal to sight above the bridge.

 

If nothing else this would be fun (it would need a co-acting arm lower down), but the sighting is still very poor due to the short distance between the tunnel mouth and the signal.  Can you convert the tunnel to another bridge and fudge the scenery so that it looks like the curve isn't so severe?  Your drivers might then have enough of a chance of sighting the signal over and through the bridges for disbelief to remain in suspension.

 

A couple of examples of multiple shunting signals on the GN in Yorkshire:

• mostly shown as stacked miniature arms at Hammerton Street (1953)
• shown as stacked discs at Armley Moor (1960)

[Michael Hodgson]

19 hours ago, AJ427 said:

One thing to note - most diagrams I studied were generally numbered left to right from the signalman’s POV, but I’ve done it from my POV as the operator (i.e. the opposite way from the box).

 

There's a prototypical way to model the numbering the way you want.  If the the frame is against the back wall of the box rather than the front, the signalman is facing the other way, so the numbering also goes the other way than if it's under the windows!    By BR days the frame might have had to be replaced because of wear or major layout changes,.  When a frame did need replacement sometimes they built a new box, but sometimes they could build the new frame in the existing structure opposite the existing one to minimise the time the box had to be closed for the actual change over.

 

GNR box diagrams were indeed drawn as shown by LNERGE, but more modern practice is to show the frame as a line within the recatangle, and a dot above or below if to represent the bobby, and this approach does have the advantage of telling you which wall the frame is against.

[Stephen Freeman]

A very good book on GNR signalling by Vanns will no doubt help. Of course the GNR was noted for somersault signals unless you go for the more modern LNER ones. I hesitate to mention GNR ground signals of course.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Stephen Freeman

[AJ427]

Thanks for the useful info everyone. I think I am getting somewhere now.

 

On 29/09/2023 at 17:04, 5BarVT said:

Not far off, although my experience is mainly WR.  Having said that, from what I’ve seen of other regions there was a lot in common.

I would expect 11 to be the other side of 13 to give 12, 13, 14 as you have done with the other crossovers.

 

Typically on WR boxes there would be three consecutive spares, thus allowing for a future crossover should traffic needs warrant, in your case I would leave them at the left hand end so 5, 6, 7 and shove everything up by one til you hit the gap.

 

One further thing to consider is no.11 (my 14) which reads three ways.  It could be off one lever, or it could be a triple disc with three levers. Using my numbering: top to up side sidings 12, middle to down main 13, siding exit becomes 14, siding points 15, bottom to down sidings 16, then push the down line signals up be one to give a 19 lever frame.

 

Paul.

 

Thanks Paul. The thing about the consecutive spares makes a lot of sense, and indeed I had originally incorporated another crossover at the other end of the station. 

Based on that I have tweaked the plan to the following:

 

Levers:

1. Up Distant (off stage/not modelled)

2. Up Home

3. Up Starter

4. Up Advanced Starter (off stage/not modelled)

5. Spare

6. Spare

7. Spare

8. Disc Down Siding to Up line (yellow to allow moves to head shunt)

9. Points (Down Siding Exit & Slip)

10. Disc Down to Up line

11. Points (Crossover Slip & Up)

12. Disc Up Siding to Up line

13. Points (Up Siding Trap & Exit)

14. Disc to up siding/crossover

15. Spare

16. Spare

17. Down Starter

18. Down Home

19. Down Distant (off stage/not modelled)

 

If 14 was just a single disc, how would that work in terms of how does the signalman know exactly where the driver wants to go? Would that be local knowledge of a regular pick-up/drop-off, or a quick chat before all the shunting kicked off?

 

On 29/09/2023 at 23:01, Flying Pig said:

 

If nothing else this would be fun (it would need a co-acting arm lower down), but the sighting is still very poor due to the short distance between the tunnel mouth and the signal.  Can you convert the tunnel to another bridge and fudge the scenery so that it looks like the curve isn't so severe?  Your drivers might then have enough of a chance of sighting the signal over and through the bridges for disbelief to remain in suspension.

 

A couple of examples of multiple shunting signals on the GN in Yorkshire:

• mostly shown as stacked miniature arms at Hammerton Street (1953)
• shown as stacked discs at Armley Moor (1960)

 

The tunnel is intended as another bridge but thinking about it, I could extend the head shunt on the down side to terminate beneath the road bridge or just after. This opens everything out a bit and improves sighting.

Does the Palmer's Green diagram show signal 15 actually on the bridge and then repeated?

 

20 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

A very good book on GNR signalling by Vanns will no doubt help. Of course the GNR was noted for somersault signals unless you go for the more modern LNER ones. I hesitate to mention GNR ground signals of course.

 

I could go for the LNER upper quadrants, but nothing screams Great Northern more than a somersault so I aim to have at least one.

Yes the GNR red disc ground signals... They were still in use at Horton Park Junction and at Cullingworth right until final closure so they could be used. Did they have a version of the yellow 'pass for shunting' type?

 

Thanks all.

 

 

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

9 hours ago, AJ427 said:

If 14 was just a single disc, how would that work in terms of how does the signalman know exactly where the driver wants to go? Would that be local knowledge of a regular pick-up/drop-off, or a quick chat before all the shunting kicked off?

 

You could ask the same question whether there is one disc that covers all routes, or each route has its own disc. The question that arises with one disc is "How does the driver know which route has been set?" to which the answer is that if it is not clear from the position of the point switches, that the driver usually assumes that the signalman knows where the locomotive is to go. Signalmen don't work in isolation, and for one-off manoeuvres, someone (perhaps the driver, but it might be the stationmaster, guard or shunter) will have spoken to the signalman telling him what is required.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[Flying Pig]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

You could ask the same question whether there is one disc that covers all routes, or each disc has its own route. The question that arises with one disc is "How does the driver know which route has been set?" to which the answer is that if it is not clear from the position of the point switches, that the driver usually assumes that the signalman knows where the locomotive is to go. Signalmen don't work in isolation, and for one-off manoeuvres, someone (perhaps the driver, but it might be the stationmaster, guard or shunter) will have spoken to the signalman telling him what is required.

 

The usual phrase is that all concerned must "come to a clear understanding" about what is to be done.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

You could ask the same question whether there is one disc that covers all routes, or each disc has its own route. The question that arises with one disc is "How does the driver know which route has been set?" to which the answer is that if it is not clear from the position of the point switches, that the driver usually assumes that the signalman knows where the locomotive is to go. Signalmen don't work in isolation, and for one-off manoeuvres, someone (perhaps the driver, but it might be the stationmaster, guard or shunter) will have spoken to the signalman telling him what is required.

There's no need for the Driver to know where he's going from a ground signal  as the Shunter will tell him that and the Shunter will agree with the Signalman what is to be done when and where on the running lines.  All the Driver has to do is follow the instructions and hand signals of the Shunter apart from checking on a running line etc that a signal has been cleared for him.

[LNERGE]

PG15..

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Ground Signals not sure about the yellow version, I think they might have but will need to look it up.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Ground Signals not sure about the yellow version, I think they might have but will need to look it up.

Nothing wrong with a yellow arm disc in that location - it is in factthe classic siting for a yellow arm disc

[Clive Mortimore]

Is there any need for number 2? I can't see what it protecting. Number 3 is the signal protecting the point work and isn't that then the home signal and number 4 is the starter (or in modern terms the section signal)? 

[Flying Pig]

24 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Is there any need for number 2? I can't see what it protecting. Number 3 is the signal protecting the point work and isn't that then the home signal and number 4 is the starter (or in modern terms the section signal)? 

 

How does the location of the home signals affect the clearing points?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

17 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Is there any need for number 2? I can't see what it protecting. Number 3 is the signal protecting the point work and isn't that then the home signal and number 4 is the starter (or in modern terms the section signal)? 

2 could have two functions. It could be a relic from the days when the Board of Trade required trains stopped in platforms to be protected by a signal. It could also be there so that 3 is the clearing point and shunting can take place without needing to block back. Clearly the distance from 2 to 3 is less than 440 yards, but we are used to such compression on model railways. I have no idea about the GNR, but similar arrangements were common elsewhere.

[LNERGE]

I’m sure with 2 where it is unrestricted acceptance would be permitted. Not so with 18 on the other road. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by LNERGE

[Clive Mortimore]

From "Railway Signalling and Communication" 1st edition circa 1945 as there is no publication date. A book based on lectures given by mainly LNER signal engineers. 

 

Looking at AJ's plan this is very similar and the basic principles could be applied.