Turntables on the Withered Arm

[DCB]

Where could the West Country / Battle of Britain locos turn on the SR lines west of Exeter.  Obviously post WW2  Plymouth Friary, Exmouth Junction, plus Ilfracombe had the 65 ft or so Turntables needed but where else?   Barnstaple seems to have had a 50ft .  I am guessing Wadebridge or Padstow did as well but Torrington?  Bude?   Okehampton? .  Can anyone throw any light please.

[VIA185]

No sheds or turntables at Torrington, Bude or Okehampton (a shed for a shunter at Meldon quarry). Padstow had a 70ft turntable specifically for the Bulleids but even so, the North Cornwall line was famous for the Pacifics running tender-first with one coach. (CJL)

[Innerhome]

From LSWR Engine Sheds - Hawkins & Reeve:

(hope I've read correctly):

Okehampton - 70ft - was 50ft changed 1943

Bude 50ft -(Pacifics still occasional visitors)

Barnstaple - 50ft - engines could be turned on the triangle leading on the GWR lines - don't know if any Pacifics did. There are some photographs of Pacifics on Barnstaple shed - though would have assumed most worked through to Ilfracombe.

Torrington - removed early on - again I think odd Pacific worked down

Ilfracombe 65ft - from 1925 (?)

Plymouth Friary - 50ft - I think engines turned on a triangle

Launceston 50ft (?)

Padstow - 65ft post war

Wadebridge 50ft

 

So - certain areas generated some tender first running

  

 

[PortlandStone]

At Launceston both the GWR and the LSWR had turntables. The LSWR turntable was taken out of use in 1943 when  a connection was laid between the GWR and LSWR lines.

Source: An Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway, Irwell Press, 2008.

[Rivercider]

Since there were only a few places that WC/BB pacifics could be turned on the Withered Arm

there were quite a few loco duties requiring tender first running each day. In North Devon

only Ilfracombe was capable of turning a WC/BB since the table at Barnstaple was only 50'.

A loco running tender first is not so photogenic, so records are understandably scarce.

 

Lines to Torrington by John Nicholas has details from the summer of 1957, here is part of a duty:-

 

Exmouth Junction duty 529 7P/5F West Country, started the day at Ilfracombe Loco facing south.

Worked 6.50am Ilfracombe to Kings Nympton passenger (7.52am), then

8.30am Kings Nympton to Barnstaple Junction, tender first (8.52am), then went on to Barnstaple loco until

11.23 am Barnstaple Junction to Torrington freight, tender first (11.57am), then

12.45pm Torrington to Barnstaple Junction freight (2.29pm)

 

 

How would the servicing and coaling of a WC/BB be carried out at Padstow/Wadebridge?

Wadebridge had coaling facilities, but only a 50' table. Padstow's 65' table could turn the loco.

I assume that a WC/BB would be taken off a down train at Wadebridge go to the shed for coaling,

then take over a later train down to Padstow where it could be turned ready to work back up

to Okehampton or Exeter.

 

cheers 

 

 

[Dave Mitchell]

I was searching for images of the turntable at Exmouth junction to get an idea of the vacuum op detail & stumbled upon this conversation.

Turntables on the SR in the west of England were as far as I am aware were as follows:- ( I’m open to correction!)

Exmouth Junc 65’

Okehampton 65’? (1947?)

Plymouth Friary 50’

Ilfracombe 65’ (1946?)

Barnstaple 55’

Wadebridge 55’?

Padstow 65’ (1947?)

Bude 55’

I grew up in Plymouth & can remember seeing engines turning on the Cattewater triangle & Laira/ Mount Gould triangle circa 63/64.

Images exist of West Country’s , Woolworths etc being turned in this way.

65’ tables were necessary to accomodate the wheelbase of Bulleids Pacific’s on the routes where they frequented.

We were remember a nation recovering from war so I would imagine the push to get families to the beaches again was an immense & time & £ consuming operation, materially.

Images exist of WC’s at Bude running back to Oke tender first.

Tender first running at Wadebridge with a WC & a single coach occurred most days & was the result of engine coming off train at Padstow, stabling stock & then run back light to Wadebridge. A set of Wadebridge men took on engine & coupled to single coach worked back to Padstow. Then they worked back to Wadebridge hooked off, stabled engine, watered, coaler & fire cleaned.

In a m engine was prepped & worked down l/e to Padstow, turned & hooked onto up train.

I have seen images of tender first workings on the Plymouth Rd also when Oke table was out of action.

At Exmouth Junc when their table was down they had to use the western one at St David’s & that’s another story!

 

 

[Oldddudders]

Halwill - 50'. Installed in time to feature on the 1906 OS map.

[Miss Prism]

If we're on the subject of fitted turntables, I assume this location (with Bulldog 3453) is St Blazey, but any confirmation/suggestions would be welcome.

 

 

(Quite what a Bulldog is doing at St Blazey is another matter!)

 

 

[Stoke West]

9 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

If we're on the subject of fitted turntables, I assume this location (with Bulldog 3453) is St Blazey, but any confirmation/suggestions would be welcome.

 

 

(Quite what a Bulldog is doing at St Blazey is another matter!)

 

 

Not St Blazey

[phil_sutters]

From Dad's albums  -  not the best shot, but the best there is!

[Stoke West]

2 hours ago, Stoke West said:

Not St Blazey

Meant to add i can see where your coming from , the white siding behind . The signal box looks SR to me although not very sharp

[Stoke West]

7 minutes ago, Stoke West said:

Meant to add i can see where your coming from , the white siding behind . The signal box looks SR to me although not very sharp

Could it be Redhill , sand from Holmthorpe ?

[Stoke West]

5 minutes ago, Stoke West said:

Could it be Redhill , sand from Holmthorpe ?

Scrap Redhill that dosen't work , but did find a nice shot of a Hymek there mid 60's when looking , with a U waiting to go on shed

[Miss Prism]

14 minutes ago, Stoke West said:

the white siding behind

 

It's not a siding, I think it's the edge of the turntable pit, painted white. Barnstaple Victoria Road fits.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

On 29/09/2023 at 21:21, VIA185 said:

No sheds or turntables at Torrington, Bude or Okehampton (a shed for a shunter at Meldon quarry). Padstow had a 70ft turntable specifically for the Bulleids but even so, the North Cornwall line was famous for the Pacifics running tender-first with one coach. (CJL)

But only in very specific circumstances that would have otherwise resulted in wasteful light engine moves.

 

The loco and stock off the final evening arrival of a through service at Padstow then formed the last Padstow - Wadebridge local of the day. That allowed a Wadebridge tank loco and crew to be rostered off at least an hour earlier than would otherwise have been possible. The Pacific had to run to shed in any case, and the schedule didn't allow time for turning it at Padstow. AIUI, the converse happened the following morning.

 

Because the 50' Wadebridge table couldn't accommodate a WC, any Pacific passing to and from the MPD would inevitably have run tender-first in one direction, irrespective of whether it was pulling a train. How long the loco had at Padstow between workings would have presumably been the deciding factor as to which.  

 

I don't possess a WTT for the North Cornwall, but it's conceivable that similar workings occurred during the day, especially if trains were running out of course.

 

John 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

Tender-first running on the down west of Okehampton, certainly west of Halwill, would have been most unpleasant much of the year. Trees in that part of the world often indicate the prevailing westerly wind by being mis-shapen, and the much of the railway is high and exposed. Locomen would not have enjoyed such a trip in inclement weather. As Dunsignalling says, the photos of Bulleids running tender-first - often the object of derision by other railways' fanboys - were almost all taken in the few miles beyond Wadebridge, where the topography offered some shelter.  

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Tender-first running on the down west of Okehampton, certainly west of Halwill, would have been most unpleasant much of the year. Trees in that part of the world often indicate the prevailing westerly wind by being mis-shapen, and the much of the railway is high and exposed. Locomen would not have enjoyed such a trip in inclement weather. As Dunsignalling says, the photos of Bulleids running tender-first - often the object of derision by other railways' fanboys - were almost all taken in the few miles beyond Wadebridge, where the topography offered some shelter.  

 

Mind you, if one had to do it, the high Bulleid tender cab was the thing to do it behind...😉

[Hal Nail]

16 hours ago, Stoke West said:

The signal box looks SR to me although not very sharp

I see that too but could it be the back of a GWR box? Still doesn't fit St Blazey though as too near the turntable?

 

The turntable itself looks to be identical to St Blazey but there were others, such as Southall, of this design (Cowan and Sheldon?)

Edited December 27, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

I'm not sure about Barnstaple Victoria Road - the signalbox in the background doesn't seem the right shape.

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 29/09/2023 at 19:28, DCB said:

Where could the West Country / Battle of Britain locos turn on the SR lines west of Exeter.  Obviously post WW2  Plymouth Friary, Exmouth Junction, plus Ilfracombe had the 65 ft or so Turntables needed but where else?   Barnstaple seems to have had a 50ft .  I am guessing Wadebridge or Padstow did as well but Torrington?  Bude?   Okehampton? .  Can anyone throw any light please.

As at mid 1934 - so pre-Light Pacifics of course - there were turnatables as follows in the far west.  

Length show is the rai length on the table

 

Exmouth Jcn 64'10",     Okehampton 50ft 2",   Friary 54ft 1",  Barnstaple Jcn 50ft,  Ilfracombe 64ft 10",  Halwill 49ft 10",  Launceston 49ft 11",  Wadebridge 49ft 9",  Padstow 49ft 9",  Bude 49ft 10"

Source SR Appendix 1934 edition.

 

Wheelbase of a Light pacific (measured to axle centres, was 57ft 6".    A photo by Ian Lane taken in the mid-late 1950s, and associated caption,  confirms that the Friary turntable could not take a Light Pacific so they had to be turned on one of the nearby. triangles thus indicating that it was not renewed to take the Light Pacifics.

 

There was a GWR triangle at Barnstaple but I don't now if SR engines were permitted to use it in order to turn.

[Wickham Green too]

On 27/12/2023 at 13:13, The Stationmaster said:

... There was a GWR triangle at Barnstaple but I don't now if SR engines were permitted to use it in order to turn.

GWR engines were permitted to run through to Ilfracombe so use of the triangle might have been part of the same agreement.

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

GWR engines were permitted to run through to Ilfracombe so use of the triangle might have been part of the same agreement.

Plenty of Light Pacifics worked through to Barnstaple IIRC, and I don't recall seeing many pics of them returning to Exeter tender-first.

 

Mind you, by the time I started getting up that way, all of it was WR territory anyway.....

 

John

Edited December 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Oldddudders]

The SM's note from the 1934 Appendix makes interesting reading since Exmouth Junction and Ilfracombe had 65' TTs  long before Bulleid had landed. What was the loco that justified them at the latter? 

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The SM's note from the 1934 Appendix makes interesting reading since Exmouth Junction and Ilfracombe had 65' TTs  long before Bulleid had landed. What was the loco that justified them at the latter? 

Urie, and Maunsell 4-6-0s only fitted 60' turntables with just over a foot to spare; the overall wheelbase of a Nelson was 60' 9", and Maunsell had outline plans for a Pacific to follow on from them.

 

With longer locos being built in numbers for the LMS at the time, the turntable building firms were probably set up to produce 65-footers as the default size in the 1930s unless customers needed something to fit an existing pit.

 

OK, Ilfracombe didn't cater for any of the above locos, but it's likely that the SR had also decided to standardise on the larger size when re-equipping their MPD's. 

 

John 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling
Correction

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Drummond, Urie, and Maunsell 4-6-0s only fitted 55' turntables with just over a foot to spare; ...

Erm ? ........ a Maunsell N15 or S15 had a wheelbase of 58'0'' or 57'1.5'' when fitted with with bogie tenders ................. and don't forget the wheel flanges projected below railhead beyond that dimension ..... AND there was need for wiggle room so that the loco - with whatever coal & water load - could be balanced !