Castle class batch differences.

[Hal Nail]

I've bought a model of Earl Baldwin in pre-war shirtbutton/monogram form (wide square type steam chest, short chimney, large cab windows). The plates are damaged so I need to buy replacements so checking options and as this era isn't my forte, hoping for help clarifying a couple of things please.

 

• Pre 5043/4 (I've seen slightly conflicting info) were built from new with the tall chimney so not suitable
• The Star rebuilds from 5083 had narrow inside steam chests so they are also ruled out
• At some point, I'm guessing batch 310 from 5068, smaller Collett style cab windows were introduced

 

So I'm basically looking at batch 303 which was mostly Earls (or their short lived Castle names)

 

What I'm not clear on is:

 

1) Am I right about the introduction of the smaller Collett style cab windows? The renamed Aircraft ones were definitely the smaller style.

2) Earl of Plymouth and Sir Felix Pole, amongst others, were running around with a tall chimney in BR days. Were some still built with taller chimneys after 5043/4 or did Castle have boiler swaps from the pool, so chimneys could change later on?

 

Also as a minor aside, did they actually have windscreen wipers from new?

 

Appreciate a good photo is helpful but not quite as many around from that era and certainly not in my books!

 

 

 

 

[M.I.B]

An excellent book on this subject and real "rivett counter" info is Drew Fermore's Haynes Manual on the Castle Class.      He is a great bloke and does lurk on here from time to time under the name "Castle" but he's a busy bloke - very much involved at the coalface with Pendennis Castle.

[Hal Nail]

I'm pretty happy that small cab windows did start from 5068 now as I found a great shot of a new 5067, the last of the Earl batch, with the original large type.

 

I'm less convinced chimneys were as clear cut. A few of the Earls still appear to have been built the taller type, eg Earl of Pymouth which kept it well into BR days, whilst others were built with the short type. 

 

 

[Miss Prism]

The cab window difference is in the width, yes? Is the larger window closer to the front or closer to the cutout, or both?

 

[Hal Nail]

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

The cab window difference is in the width, yes? Is the larger window closer to the front or closer to the cutout, or both?

It's the cab front windows, similar to a Hall v a Modified Hall. The original follow the roof line are larger and a bit sharper, later slightly more rounded, don't quite follow the roof and smaller (Churchward v Collett?).

 

A lot of earlier castles were rebuilt with the later style - Pendennis and Caerphilly both ended up small but Earl of Mt Edgcumbe still has the original type.

 

I've rarely seen this feature mentioned, although Portraits of Castles does pick it up in some captions. I think it makes quite a difference to the appearance so I tend to notice.

 

Original:

 

 

Later:

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Coach bogie]

Your issues with chimneys is the frequency boilers/smokeboxes were changed. It can be different types depending on date.

 

As for the Abbey rebuilds, all my images have the final style of inside cylinders as I understand they were all given new front end frames, as part of the rebuild.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited October 11, 2023 by Coach bogie

[Taz]

24 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

Your issues with chimneys is the frequency boilers/smokeboxes were changed. It can be different types depending on date.

 

As for the Abbey rebuilds, all my images have the final style of inside cylinders as I understand they were all given new front end frames, as part of the rebuild.

 

Mike Wiltshire

My understanding is that the Abbey rebuilds did have squared off inside cylinder cover but that they were narrower than the later castles as the frames were still the narrow ones the Abbeys and earlier castles were built with.

 

When I was still modelling a few years ago I wanted to renumber a Hornby castle as one of the Abby rebuilds but I could never find a source for the narrower squared off inside cylinder chest.

 

[Hal Nail]

On 11/10/2023 at 09:03, Coach bogie said:

Your issues with chimneys is the frequency boilers/smokeboxes were changed. It can be different types depending on date.

 

Certainly by later on many/most had changed to the shorter type but I was originally trying to pin down the position for as built. I found a pre war photo of Earl of Plymouth with a tall chimney so either it had a very early swap (ie within a year or two), or some built with a tall one after they have supposedly switched to using short!

 

Anyway now I've narrowed it down, I'll go off a photo anyway.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Coach bogie]

20 hours ago, Taz said:

My understanding is that the Abbey rebuilds did have squared off inside cylinder cover but that they were narrower than the later castles as the frames were still the narrow ones the Abbeys and earlier castles were built with.

 

When I was still modelling a few years ago I wanted to renumber a Hornby castle as one of the Abby rebuilds but I could never find a source for the narrower squared off inside cylinder chest.

 

That makes sense. It is not always clear what is involved with a new front end. Some of the Abbeys had further front end work when receiving double chimneys.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Steamport Southport]

One of the things I've always wondered is, was there a reason why they didn't rebuild the other two Abbeys?

 

4061 and 4062. Never seen it mentioned. Just seems odd that those two weren't converted.

 

Could it have just been something simple such as it was wartime so they didn't bother, or was there a physical difference in that May 1922 batch?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_4000_Class

 

 

 

Jason

Edited October 12, 2023 by Steamport Southport