Zimo MS490N 6 Pin Lighting issue

[woodenhead]

I've fitted these to two Dapol N gauge locos this afternoon and lights don't seem to functioning after conversion but are with other chips.

 

On one loco it's not an issue as I had to rip out the lights because the wiring was glued to the cab interior (class 52) and I could not remove it.

 

But the other loco a class 35 had/has lights working with a Rails basic 6 pin decoder but not with the Zimo, I even tried the class 52 chip in the 35 and it's the same.  As a further test I also temporarily reconnected the lights for one end of the class 52 and it too had no lights until I hit F8 which caused them to kick in.  F8 on the 52 activates/deactivates the rear lights.  The Hymek has no similar function to try.

 

The fact both chips seem to exhibiting similar behaviour leads me to think this is a CV thing than two faulty chips.

 

Has anyone had a similar issue or can anyone suggest CVs to check?

[AMJ]

Have the outputs been programmed to a different function output?  Was this an own or purchased project?  It might need a question of how it was set up.

The manual is below.

http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MS-Sound-Decoders_EN.pdf

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, AMJ said:

Have the outputs been programmed to a different function output?  Was this an own or purchased project?  It might need a question of how it was set up.

The manual is below.

http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/MS-Sound-Decoders_EN.pdf

Purchased from Digitrains and as set up by them.

 

I put it into the loco to check it before I did any soldering for speakers and stay alives, and all soldering was on the objects being attached as the chip came with wires for speakers and both variations of Stay Alive.

 

I then put in the Class 52 chip I had already done and that appeared to be the same.  I'd already stripped out the lighting in the 52 as I was removing the cab interiors but as the connections were all still in situ I reconnected one set of lights.  Nothing happened with F0, but F8 to toggle the tail light did cause the lights to come on so it's not a hardware fault.  I also stuck it into a class 24 and the lights came on when the loco began to move.  All leads me to think this is a mapping/function issue over a hardware fault.

 

I will also be contacting Digitrains as I want three more chips and whilst lights aren't the most important thing to me, they do at least tell you which way the loco intends to move!

[jamesed]

If you haven't already done so, do a cv8=8 reset (which shouldn't affect the sound project settings).  Then,  by default, whichever lights are wired to the two pin outputs will be controlled by F0 directional in either forward or reverse. Whatever lights have been connected to the two solder pad function outputs will be switchable on or off with F1 and F2. This should then be the same as the other make decoder you tried.  Once you have established that they all work then you can set about re-mapping, making F1 and F2 outputs directional if required and also apply unilateral light suppression if needed. 

 

If you have lights toggling on and off with F8 it sounds like someone has set that up for unilateral light suppression. A reset will put cv107-110 back to a default of 0 so you can start again. 

 

[woodenhead]

I've emailed Digitrains to check I've asked for and gotten the correct projects for the intended locos just in case this is my own error on what I have ordered.

 

And if not, what do they suggest. 

[jpendle]

It definitely sounds like the default lighting CV's have been changed, F8 turning off taillights is used on my ESU equipped sound locos.

 

What bothers me is that the MS490N fits into a standard 6 pin socket with 2 wires for the speaker. On all the Dapol loco's that I have with 6 pin sockets, you can't control the front and rear lights separately, F0 controls the forward and reverse lights, i.e. both head & tail lights dependent on the direction of travel. As @jamesed said reset the decoder and then F0 should turn on the head and tail lights. If the sound project were loaded into a Next18 decoder then F8 turning on/off lights would make a lot more sense.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[woodenhead]

I've had a response from Digitrains, the projects are set up for OO locos so that would be a Dapol Western in OO and a Heljan Hymek.

 

They have asked a couple more questions that I need to look at later, basically exactly what comes on with F8.  I am guessing it will be different with each loco as F8 was a Western project thing.

 

I'll get the loco on the Sprog later and see what gives on some of the settings, this are both the basic Dapol N gauge set up so unless I start rewiring the Hymek it is only about getting F0 working.  The Western will be more complicated when I get around to it as I will most likely be adding new lights as the old ones were glued to the cab that no longer has a space to occupy.

[Nigelcliffe]

 

My understanding of decoder resets, is they take the decoder back to the settings loaded by the Sound Provider.     If that Sound Provider's project included lighting changes, those are part of the project, and the reset goes back to those.    It does not go to "ex factory".      So, if the sound provider changed the lighting, no amount of CV8=8 will get the lighting back to the F0 key.   

 

Many sound providers produce projects designed for specific models, including all their lights and other features.   Hence needing to alter the lighting and other function output behaviours to their requirements.  

 

In a Zimo, there are multiple ways to map lights;  different "function map" tables, and there's the whole "swiss mapping" option.   As it came from Digitrains, then there's a fair chance the lighting is done within Swiss Mapping (one of their sound writers is a big enthusiast for Swiss Mapping).   Find out how the current mapping is done, and if not to your liking, remove it, then setup what you prefer.    

 

- Nigel

[LMSfan72]

I think with Zimo, but check the manual, that CV8 = 8 goes back to factory but means sounds are unlikely to work properly until CVs are readjusted, and CV8=0 sets it back to sound project defaults

[woodenhead]

Before I discovered the joys of Stay Alives the most I did in the CV department was alter the starting speed of a DMU.

 

I did see references to Swiss Mapping in the user manuals, I thought they only referred to Swiss locos lol.

 

Looks like a learning opportunity is presenting itself...I won't attempt a reset just yet, it seems it might leave me worse off than right now.

 

Having a Sprog is great though, going to be much easier to see what is going on than trying to do it with the Powercab controller.

[Nigelcliffe]

12 minutes ago, LMSfan72 said:

I think with Zimo, but check the manual, that CV8 = 8 goes back to factory but means sounds are unlikely to work properly until CVs are readjusted, and CV8=0 sets it back to sound project defaults

 

Indeed, check the manual,  where it says the opposite,  and that CV8=0 is not recommended.....

 

From the MN-series manual:

  CV #8 = “8” → HARD RESET (NMRA standard);   all CVs return to the last active CV set or sound project, or (if no such set was active before) the default values listed in this CV table.
CV #8 = “0” → NOT recommended (service purp. only) Default values of the CV table

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Nigelcliffe

[Nigelcliffe]

Just now, woodenhead said:

............

 

I did see references to Swiss Mapping in the user manuals, I thought they only referred to Swiss locos lol.

........

 

Think "Swiss Army Knife" - does everything, if you can get the right bit out without hurting yourself in the process.  

(Originally it was for complex lighting on Swiss locos ).  

 

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Indeed, check the manual,  where it says the opposite,  and that CV8=0 is not recommended.....

 

  CV #8 = “8” → HARD RESET (NMRA standard);   all CVs return to the last active CV set or sound project, or (if no such set was active before) the default values listed in this CV table.
CV #8 = “0” → NOT recommended (service purp. only) Default values of the CV table

 

 

But I think in my case CV #8 = “8” might not do anything because this is the default settings for this project, I've not altered anything to reset back to what it began as.  I'll set up the Sprog tonight and see what it reads off the chip.

[LMSfan72]

57 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Indeed, check the manual,  where it says the opposite,  and that CV8=0 is not recommended.....

 

From the MN-series manual:

  CV #8 = “8” → HARD RESET (NMRA standard);   all CVs return to the last active CV set or sound project, or (if no such set was active before) the default values listed in this CV table.
CV #8 = “0” → NOT recommended (service purp. only) Default values of the CV table

 

 

Also the same for the MS. Yes, my bad, wrong way round from memory which is why checking the manual is important. The reason CV8=0 is not recommended is it screws the sound project settings as it goes back to the factory setting defaults.

 

In this case

49 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But I think in my case CV #8 = “8” might not do anything because this is the default settings for this project, I've not altered anything to reset back to what it began as.  I'll set up the Sprog tonight and see what it reads off the chip.

I agree, as they are the defaults for the OO projects as you said. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by LMSfan72

[tarifa]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

I've had a response from Digitrains, the projects are set up for OO locos so that would be a Dapol Western in OO and a Heljan Hymek.

 

 

Digitrains being the vendor should you be asking them to re-blow the decoders to suit the N gauge locos you want to install the decoders.

[woodenhead]

28 minutes ago, tarifa said:

Digitrains being the vendor should you be asking them to re-blow the decoders to suit the N gauge locos you want to install the decoders.

That might be the case yet, but before that they may simply give me the revised CV settings for me to add myself.

 

I need to have a look this evenng, problem is that it's two different projects so potentially different changes - the Western is a DJM design, the Hymek is the very basic Dapol set up from a long way back.

[woodenhead]

I've looked at some of the light related CV settings, there does appear to be some modification.

 

CV33 default 1 is 0

CV34 default 2 is 0

 

These determine the F0 function settings in the NMRA standard for forward and reverse.

 

Then in Swiss Mapping F0 does appear for Group 1 indicating something is going on.

CV430 default 0 is 29

CV432 default 0 is 14

CV434 default 0 is 15

 

However, if I put them all back to defaults nothing changes with regards lights, so they may be part of the modification but not all of it.  I also had the loco on DC tonight and the lights come on in direction of travel confiming it is not a chip hardware issue, it is definitely a mapping mod.

 

Currently doing a full CV mapping comparison to see what else shows up, though hopefully Digitrains come back tomorrow with the magic combination.

[Nigelcliffe]

The other place to look include: 

 -    Other groups in Swiss Mapping which are suppressing F0 key  

 -   "Zimo input mapping",  which is CV400 upwards. 

 -    "universal light suppression",  CV107/108  (left side of lights panel in JMRI)

-    "Dimming" of lights,  in the Function Output panel in JMRI

 

[woodenhead]

@Nigelcliffe I did notice that dimming was set at 60, so I tried 0 which should be full voltage but nothing changed.

 

However, it's probably a combination of 33/34 107/108 430/432/434 which I haven't actually attempted yet (i.e. add in 107/108)

 

Digitrains should come back today with their own suggestions.

[woodenhead]

Had a go with the 52 again just now, the lights only work when the loco is moving in one direction, and actually moving and it requires F0 and F8 (Aux 1 F, Aux2 R) to be active, there is an F20(Aux3 F, Aux4 R) but that does nothing.

 

So basic out of the box lighting is not switched on by F0 on both locos, but I can make it do something on the 52 if F8 is activated and the loco is rolling in one direction.

 

I've had one response from Digitrains this morning, gone back with my findings from that and awaiting the next response.

[Nigelcliffe]

I assume you've read in the entire table of Swiss Mapping inside JMRI ?    That may have clues.  

Also check the "lighting" section again, there are options on function outputs which might be affecting things.  

 

( Digitrains ought to know the CV's set in their decoder projects and what they do ).  

 

 

[jpendle]

Remember that with a 6 pin decoder you’ve only got 2 function outputs unless you’ve been soldering to pads on the pcb.

That means that Digitrains need to remove all their lighting mods, except for dimming otherwise the lights will never work.

I would be asking Digitrains to redo the sound project with lighting suitable for a 6 pin decoder without any wiring mods.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[woodenhead]

They've come back with one suggestion but it was for a CV mapping that is already on the loco so I've gone back with that.

 

I expect they might end up in the post...

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

I assume you've read in the entire table of Swiss Mapping inside JMRI ?    That may have clues.  

Also check the "lighting" section again, there are options on function outputs which might be affecting things.  

 

( Digitrains ought to know the CV's set in their decoder projects and what they do ).  

 

 

I can see F0 is subject to some mapping, I can see CV430, 432 and 434 with values that I assumed reference that mapping - if I clear those CVs back to zero should it remove the Swiss Mapping because I've tried that and not seen any difference.

7 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Remember that with a 6 pin decoder you’ve only got 2 function outputs unless you’ve been soldering to pads on the pcb.

That means that Digitrains need to remove all their lighting mods, except for dimming otherwise the lights will never work.

I would be asking Digitrains to redo the sound project with lighting suitable for a 6 pin decoder without any wiring mods.

 

Regards,

 

John P

No soldering other than to connect wires to speakers from chip and stay alive, otherwise it is an untouched chip and PCB.  Never had this difficulty before, but maybe all the projects so far have been optimised for N whereas these don't have such a project available.

[jamesed]

57 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I can see F0 is subject to some mapping, I can see CV430, 432 and 434 with values that I assumed reference that mapping - if I clear those CVs back to zero should it remove the Swiss Mapping because I've tried that and not seen any difference.

 

I'd say that as well as putting those cv values back to zero you also need to then reprogram cv33=1 and cv34=2.